tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post6755902390882220923..comments2023-11-02T07:25:45.884-05:00Comments on Mormanity - a blog for those interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: The River of Filthy Water in Lehi's Dream, and Perhaps in His Personal ExperienceJeff Lindsayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comBlogger52125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-46778956041298235982020-02-10T07:45:14.376-06:002020-02-10T07:45:14.376-06:00“Joseph was able to inadvertently describe unknown...“Joseph was able to inadvertently describe unknown details of Mesoamerica with its: ups, downs, passes, necks, directions, cities, religion, etc.”<br /><br />He was so good at it that most “experts” in BoM geology can’t agree on where it was. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-50201703148492944642020-02-01T18:58:09.409-06:002020-02-01T18:58:09.409-06:00😵
It's also awesome that, while imitating the...😵<br />It's also awesome that, while imitating the KJV, Joseph was able to inadvertently describe unknown details of Mesoamerica with its: ups, downs, passes, necks, directions, cities, religion, etc. <br />It's amazing what one can do with the Bible, especially when Joseph seemed to believe in the hemispheric model at that point. Joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15623273723944522329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-83610682857950817392020-01-29T19:38:40.155-06:002020-01-29T19:38:40.155-06:00As usual Joe, incoherent ramblings. As usual Joe, incoherent ramblings. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-33688191685791457442020-01-29T13:35:34.430-06:002020-01-29T13:35:34.430-06:00Yes, Jeff, everyone should indeed see "Why Do...Yes, Jeff, everyone should indeed see <a href="https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/knowhy/why-does-nephi-always-go-down-to-the-wilderness-and-up-to-jerusalem" rel="nofollow">"Why Does Nephi Always Go Down to the Wilderness and Up to Jerusalem?" at Book of Mormon Central.</a><br /><br />Jeffrey R. Chadwick says all we need to know: "[I]n the idiom of Nephi one always went up to come to the Jerusalem region, and one always went down when exiting the Jerusalem region.<i>This is also the Hebrew idiom employed in the Bible</i>, where persons in both the Old and New Testaments typically are said to go down to leave Jerusalem ... and go up to come to Jerusalem" (my emphasis).<br /><br />Joseph is simply imitating the language of the KJV. There's no need to make it any more complicated than that.<br /><br />-- OKAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-88976639928672573212020-01-29T09:05:48.617-06:002020-01-29T09:05:48.617-06:00On the "up" and "down" issue, ...On the "up" and "down" issue, see "<a href="https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/knowhy/why-does-nephi-always-go-down-to-the-wilderness-and-up-to-jerusalem" rel="nofollow">Why Does Nephi Always Go Down to the Wilderness and Up to Jerusalem?</a>" at Book of Mormon Central. Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-6030914095319124782020-01-29T08:34:03.457-06:002020-01-29T08:34:03.457-06:00Joe, thanks for some interesting observations, inc...Joe, thanks for some interesting observations, including the mention of the "ups" and "downs." Those who have been around Jerusalem know that there are a lot of ups and downs, with Jerusalem being a relatively high spot. Interestingly, Nephi uses "up" and "down" with geographic precision over and over. When they go "up" to Jerusalem and then "down" to the wilderness, it's always accurate. Perhaps that means Joseph's Technicolor Dream Map was a topographic map? And with enough detail to show the River Laman, not discovered until recently, and the place Nahom/Nehhem, and Bountiful nearly due east of Nehhem/Nahom? Would love to see that map! <br />Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-68787809451577302622020-01-26T21:55:08.249-06:002020-01-26T21:55:08.249-06:00Some notes:
On maps it seems to be about 32 hours...Some notes:<br /><br />On maps it seems to be about 32 hours walking if they entered the valley from the east (partially via the current 55) 29 for west. Either is probable in 3 days. <br /><br />The ability to enter the “proposed” Valley of Lemuel from the east is another interesting detail that Joseph couldn't know but may be implied in the text. <br /><br />It’s likely that Lehi knew where he was going, and had at least a vague idea that there was water in the valley of Lemuel.<br /> <br />IF Lehi entered from the east and pitched his tents near the “head” of the river, this explains how he didn’t know the river ran into the Red Sea until he hiked down and “saw that the waters of the river emptied into the fountain…” <br /><br />IF Lehi entered from the west, then it’s likely that he had seen the river before and it was notable that it was running into the Red Sea. His instruction to Laman in this case would be to act like this specific river, running continuously into the Red Sea (vs discontinuously) <br /><br />The statement that the river continuously ran into the sea was an exclamation, not a timely evaluation. This could change much depending on time of year, etc. <br /><br />...and the valley was in the borders near the mouth thereof. 9 And <b>when my father saw that the waters of the river emptied into the fountain of the Red Sea, he spake unto Laman, saying: O that thou mightest be like unto this river, continually running into the fountain of all righteousness!”</b> (the primordial sea?)...11 Now this he spake because of the stiffneckedness of Laman and Lemuel; for behold they did murmur in many things against their father, because he was a visionary man, and had led them out of the land of Jerusalem…” (same old today murmers).<br /><br /><br />The BOfM also tells us that they had pitched their tents in the “valley by the side of a river of water” and after “8...he called the name of the river, Laman…” and 9…<b>when my father saw that the waters of the river emptied into the fountain of the Red Sea</b>, he spake unto Laman, saying: O that thou mightest be like unto this river…”<br />This implies that flowing all the way into the Red Sea was, originally, either unexpected or unknown. <br />This is likely due to two things: <br />a- they had been there before and the “nahar” didn’t make it to the sea back then.<br />B-they entered the valley from the East. <br /> Web says “It is also possible to get close to the eastern entrance of the wadi by car ...” So, they could have entered from either side. <br />As Jeff has explained the evidence indicates that the river was bigger in the past.<br />It’s absurdly unlikely that JS gleaned BofM details from a canal or etc. in his area. <br /><br />A quick search confirms that <b>today</b>: <br /> “The <b>small river of Tayeb Al-Ism </b><br /><br />“ ….a small stream of crystal clear water than runs through the gravel <b>all year long. </b>...oases surrounded] by the vertiginous sides of the canyon...the temperature inside the canyon is always more pleasant...the evaporation...”<br /> <br /> “...an impressive stream ravine has cut through this massive granite geologic block to find its way to the sea...by the late 1980s, most of the springs in the central and eastern...<b>ceased to flow as a result of extensive withdrawals of groundwater mainly for agricultural purposes…</b>springs <b>are perennial.</b>...only 26% of the discharge in 2011. In 2016, the natural pool was completely dry...the spring stream <b>had discontinuous flow for a distance about 620 m.” </b><br />Natural springs in northwest Saudi Arabia <br />Mohammed Abdullah Alsaleh<br /><br />And “...for the period 1979–2009. The wet (November to April) and dry (June to September) season…<b>Rainfall has decreased significantly in Saudi Arabia…”</b><br /><br /><br />The valley is there, no question. <br />The dual nature of the river matching the BofM is verified by the videos and photos and the BofM states that the river has a “head,” that the waters of life are there near or with the filthy river (in which people drown, etc.). There is a waste, then a field with at least one tree (this is how the area is, the rivers and springs are diverted to cultivate palms etc.).Joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15623273723944522329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-31865812829932011242020-01-26T21:34:37.816-06:002020-01-26T21:34:37.816-06:00IFs:
1- “...that if the three day journey begins...<br />IFs: <br /><br />1- “...that if the three day journey begins at the sea coast rather than Jerusalem” Google maps places the valley and “river” within 29 hours walking distance from Eilat, which any honest and reasonable person could see fits with 5“And he came down <b>by the borders near the shore of the Red Sea; and he traveled in the wilderness in the borders which are nearer the Red Sea;</b> and he did travel in the wilderness...when he had <b>traveled three days in the wilderness, he pitched his tent”</b>in a valley by the side of a river of water….” This works if they entered from the west, it’s a few more hours to enter from the east, but it could easily be done in 3 days and an eastern entrance explains another detail, that Lehi could have pitched his tent by the river and then walked the 5K down and “saw that the waters of the river emptied into the fountain…” <br /><br /><br /><br />2- “...if “borders” means “mountains,”-I don’t see how this relates, other than, as Jeff pointed out, an interesting detail. The BofM seems to associate border with seashore, the ideal starting spot even IF they entered from the valley of Lemuel from the east. <br /><br />3- “ if “river” refers to a tiny streamlet,” the so called “tiny streamlet” of today is referred to as “The small river of Tayeb Al-Ism.” And, even IF it wasn't, Jeff has shown that water flow varies, and there has been much more water flow in the past. A web search supports this.<br /><br />Also interesting that the river “head” is a spring, it swells with rainwater and is larger during wet years and wet seasons. I didn’t look into if the head (where it springs from the earth) is in the valley or near enough that it could affect Lehi’s dream. It would be especially cool IF his family were camped by it while Lehi had his vision. This would add additional BofM support, but isn’t necessary. : )<br /><br /><br />4- “ if “emptied into the fountain of the Red Sea” means “sank into the ground before reaching the Red Sea,” etc. — Jeff has shown that water flow varies, and there has been much more water flow in the past. But, even IF he didn’t, scholars have shown that the “fountain” of the Red Sea could have been referring to something underground, as in “the fountains of the great deep were broken up.” Also, it’s interesting that Nibley suggested Yamm might have been the word used for the fountain of the sea. Nephi sees <b>MariYamm as a representation of the waters of life.</b> Also, I may have mentioned that, IF the river was exactly as today, it doesn't always made it to the sea without discontinuity, thus, when Lehi "saw" this, he encouraged Laman to likewise continually flow into the sea.<br /> <br />...either way, IF or no IF, all of these ultimately "obtain" : ). <br /><br /><b>if all these things obtain, then we have a bulls-eye.</b> So, I’ll add that to the list but, to be fair, it’s actually a bunch of ‘bulls-eyes.’<br /><br /><br /><br />Critics IF’s: ; ), yes, Joseph got to translating the small plates and he was looking in his hat, and IF he needed more research, and IF he knew about Niebuhr and IF he quickly hobbled 400 miles (or 40 in critic’s “amazing feats of JS), and IF he or Oliver etc. checked it out without writing their names on the cover like others, and if Oliver or Emma or Martin etc. etc. didn’t notice him missing and still mortgaged, and IF Niebuhr actually mentioned the Valley and River along with Bountiful, the turn, etc. and Nahem, and IF JS switched up the spelling so they wouldn’t seem to miraculous, and IF on the way back he stumbled on a hill and town that would be named Alma someday, and IF he had a prophetic premonition that this would be known to be a male name someday, and IF, upon arrival at home, he read his Bible and decided the iron rod was the word that separates, and IF he knew that the Mayan language would someday be translated and they would have symbolism of the tree of life, and IF he then realized the BofM should take place in Mesoamerica but would continue to believe in the hemispheric model, and IF IF IF IF : ).....Joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15623273723944522329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-84928187818426230902020-01-26T21:34:25.820-06:002020-01-26T21:34:25.820-06:00One of many false claims against the BofM (this on...One of many false claims against the BofM (this one dating back to Joseph Smith’s day), is that the River Laman and Valley of Lemuel are anachronistic.<br /> <br />As Jeff has (again) kindly explained “Please note that the evidence that makes the candidate for the River Laman so interesting isn't that it's just a generic river that everyone has seen, but a river in a specific place that our critics for decades have said doesn't have rivers and thus could not exist -- but there it is. It's small, but has been verified to flow all year round... It's 3 days south of the beginning of the Gulf of Aqaba. The way this place was found was by following the directions of 1 Nephi 2...”<br /><br /><br />And, as our friend “OK” points out “...that if the three day journey begins at the sea coast rather than Jerusalem, and if “borders” means “mountains,” and if “river” refers to a tiny streamlet, and if “emptied into the fountain of the Red Sea” means “sank into the ground before reaching the Red Sea,” etc. — <b>if all these things obtain, then we have a bulls-eye.</b><br /><br /><br />Jeff, again, kindly pointed out that the evidence doesn’t depend on ‘mountains” being borders etc. but those things are interesting evidence supporting the BofM and clarifies: “There is one "if" and that involves interpreting what Nephi means regarding the three day's journey."<br /><br />OK insists on river size, so I'll leave that in, even though Jeff has reminded that the evidence indicates the area was wetter in Lehi’s day): “..not about whether "river" can mean "stream," it's about whether it can mean "a tiny streamlet," a trickle of water...” <br />Joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15623273723944522329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-35581778119346593062020-01-26T21:13:03.057-06:002020-01-26T21:13:03.057-06:00
Hi friends, didn’t intend to carry on here but wa...<br />Hi friends, didn’t intend to carry on here but was just reading about the visions, etc. Lehi had in the Valley of Lemuel and I showed the kiddos the video that Jeff linked, and wow! So cool to see the filthy river, helped bring the vision to life. <br /><br />...last I checked it seemed anonymouses were trying to change subjects, and asking for explanations they can find themselves :), no offense…then the “if” thing, etc. And, while I have so much going on, I decided my anonymous friends need another chance at repentance :). <br />We all have our if’s. The question is which are more plausible? And what are the roots? <br />Jeff has, again, soundly demonstrated plausibility. <br /><br />Critics have insisted the BofM isn’t true, and that they determine this by evidence, yet, as near as I can tell, all of their evidence is rooted in the assumption that Jesus doesn’t do anything today, or at least, would not speak to a 19C farm-boy with the common name Joseph who used the Urim and Thummim, etc. <br /><br />It seems to me that the “if” of of the faithful tends to be associated with an implied logical sentence such as “there is evidence that horses existed, or feasibly existed in the Americas during BofM times (several sources including Canadian Geographic, Horse Talk, etc.) however, “IF” that were to be proven false (technically impossible but still...there’s an ‘if critics are finally right about an assumption’’), THEN the BofM horse could logically have been another animal.” (And, much to the chagrin (evidenced by the mocking) of critics, Mike Ash has given evidence that tapirs were plausibly referred to as “horses” by immigrants). <br /><br />Or, for another example: critics claim that the BofM was influenced by a tree of life dream that Joseph Senior had when JS Jun. was 5ish, and which Lucy Smith recorded about 15 years after the BofM was translated. Scholars point out that it’s more likely that the BofM influenced Lucy’s memory of Joseph Sr.’s dream BUT, even ‘IF’ it didn’t, the Lord could have easily given JS Sr. a dream similar to Lehi’s and, it’s interesting to note, that JS Sr.’s dream lacks the crucial Middle Eastern (and Native American) details which are provided in the BofM account. Once again, where did Joseph get the details? <br /><br /><br />As critics know (but still won’t acknowledge and only update their websites as a last resort to appear somewhat credible to adoring fans whom really don’t care), there are scores of these repentant anachronistic “IF’s” turned supportive (and, perhaps hundreds, if we count Hebrew and Mayan names; Laban’s steel; the ‘compass’; barley; elephants; Sidon and the precision of Middle Eastern and Mesoamerican geography (ups, downs, climate, locale, etc.); windows; glass; Nahom; Bountiful; DNA; East and West as Mesoamericans would mark them; etc. etc. etc. and on to: the River Laman…)<br />Joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15623273723944522329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-8750883644875418852020-01-26T03:22:50.949-06:002020-01-26T03:22:50.949-06:00Thanks, that's a good reminder that there are ...Thanks, that's a good reminder that there are other pack animals that theoretically could have been considered. Donkeys were certainly used for some journeys and some work in the ancient Near East. However, for long-distance travel through the dessert, the camel seems to be the necessary or at least wisest choice (camels can travel much further on less water than donkeys, and can carry heavy loads and move fast). Arguably still the only plausible choice for survival along such a long trail through the desert, but certainly not the "only plausible choice" for a generic trip outside of Jerusalem. Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-15873679140245884982020-01-25T13:15:40.297-06:002020-01-25T13:15:40.297-06:00“making the only reasonable assumption that travel...“<i>making the only reasonable assumption</i> that travel by camels is intended (surely they aren't carrying their tends by hand!).“<br /><br />The <i>only</i> reasonable assumption? There was another common load bearing animal available that gets even worse mileage than the camel:<br /><br />21 And Balaam rose up in the morning, and saddled his ass, and went with the princes of Moab.<br />22 And God’s anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the Lord stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him.<br />23 And the ass saw the angel of the Lord standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and the ass turned aside out of the way, and went into the field: and Balaam smote the ass, to turn her into the way.<br />24 But the angel of the Lord stood in a path of the vineyards, a wall being on this side, and a wall on that side.<br />25 And when the ass saw the angel of the Lord, she thrust herself unto the wall, and crushed Balaam’s foot against the wall: and he smote her again.<br /><br />Seems there’s another <i>plausible</i> reading in play. . .Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-76807191991918567602020-01-25T10:56:10.326-06:002020-01-25T10:56:10.326-06:00Jeff writes, subtly misquoting me, "If a rive...Jeff writes, subtly misquoting me, <i>"If a river could mean a stream" is not an if, but a certainty. A common Hebrew word for "river" also means "stream": Strong's H5104, nahar. Even for English speakers, one should be able to imagine that in a dessert nation where water is rare, what we North Americans might call a stream can do just fine as a river. Even Utah's River Jordan is a mere stream in states where moisture is more plentiful.</i>*<br /><br />Anyone who looks at my original reply above will see that this is not about whether "river" can mean "stream," it's about whether it can mean "a tiny streamlet," a trickle of water that the photos suggest can typically be hopped across without wetting one's feet. <br /><br />I hate to keep harping on the convenient absence of any original-language Book of Mormon text, but Jeff's argument about the Hebrew <i>nahar</i> would be more convincing if we knew the book was actually written in Hebrew, rather than the "language of [Nephi's] father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians," whatever the heck that is. <br /><br />Also, everyone should remember that, in situations where this sort of semantic argument works against BoM authenticity, Jeff would be perfectly willing to say it doesn't matter. The rules of LDS apologetics would allow him to say the spirit was instructing Joseph to use an English term that, while inappropriate to an ancient context, would make more sense to his 19th-century American readers, who lived "where moisture is more plentiful." Loose translation is always on call for those cases where tight translation fails, and vice versa. LDS apologists have a keen understanding of the advantages of a <i>flexible</i> methodology.<br /><br />--- OKAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-77173042306236643412020-01-25T09:54:48.260-06:002020-01-25T09:54:48.260-06:00There is one "if" and that involves inte...There is one "if" and that involves interpreting what Nephi means regarding the three day's journey. Describing the distance as three days from the mention of the Red Sea encounter is reasonable. If so (yes, an if!), then there is an absolutely amazing recent find that not only fits the physical description of the Valley Lemuel and River Laman, but also can be found by following Nephi's directions and making the only reasonable assumption that travel by camels is intended (surely they aren't carrying their tends by hand!). That's got to be interesting, even if there's an if, wouldn't you say?Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-21315102624221030562020-01-25T09:49:08.711-06:002020-01-25T09:49:08.711-06:00OK writes, "Hence you say, in essence, that i...OK writes, "Hence you say, in essence, that if the three day journey begins at the sea coast rather than Jerusalem, and if “borders” means “mountains,” and if “river” refers to a tiny streamlet, and if “emptied into the fountain of the Red Sea” means “sank into the ground before reaching the Red Sea,” etc. — if all these things obtain, then we have a bulls-eye. If, if, if if if if."<br /><br />Sigh. OK, I know you are compelled to object to all things LDS, but I hope you'll step back and reconsider what you are saying, You are missing some very basic things. In fact, OK, your argument is seriously quite iffy. <br /><br />A Semitic relationship between "borders" and "mountains" is not needed for the River Laman to be significant evidence for authenticity of the text. It's an interesting side issue that, IF correct, adds some further granularity to the text. But our more vague concept of "borders" works as well. <br /><br />"If a river could mean a stream" is not an if, but a certainty. A common Hebrew word for "river" also means "stream": <a href="https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H5104&t=KJV" rel="nofollow">Strong's H5104, <i>nahar</i></a>. Even for English speakers, one should be able to imagine that in a dessert nation where water is rare, what we North Americans might call a stream can do just fine as a river. Even Utah's River Jordan is a mere stream in states where moisture is more plentiful.<br /><br />The flowing into the fountain of the Red Sea for a stream descending into the earth adjacent to the Red Sea is not needed for the argument either, but is a subtlety that may add further granularity and interest. Given that the area is likely dryer than it was in the past and that the water now is already being partially diverted, it's likely that the stream was stronger in the past and could have gone further. Whether directly flowing into the Red Sea or disappearing into its shore or adjacent terrain, it's clear it flows into the Red Sea/ fountain of the Red Sea. There's no problem. No if's, and's or but's. Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-69705452442907017592020-01-24T23:12:29.646-06:002020-01-24T23:12:29.646-06:00Obstinacy seems to be a common trait of the North ...Obstinacy seems to be a common trait of the North American blog poster named Steve. <br /><br />Even a 10 hour day at 7.5mph would still leave you well short of the per day requirement. <br /><br />We’ve already established that, if camels were used (it’s merely an assumption as the BoM makes no mention of them), they had to have carried loads as well as riders (tents, supplies, etc—details that <i>were</i> mentioned in the BoM). The speeds you are referring to are camels carrying riders only. Below are more realistic figures based on loads being carried, not just people. Note the source references your preferred dromedary and its ability to carry a load:<br /><br />“Short bursts of 65 km (40 miles) per hour are possible, but camels are excellent plodders. Bactrian camels can carry more than 200 kg (about 440 pounds) for 50 km (31 miles) in a day, while the more lightly built dromedaries can carry up to 100 kg (about 220 pounds) for 60 km (about 37 miles) if they are worked in the coolness of night.”<br /><br />https://www.britannica.com/animal/camel<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-80314536276098428152020-01-24T20:00:43.692-06:002020-01-24T20:00:43.692-06:00Dromedary is the type of camel found on the Arabia...Dromedary is the type of camel found on the Arabian peninsula and in Somalia. It is not a camel reserved for racing. The camel has 4 speeds; walk, jog, fast run, and canter. The most common speed for this camel is jog which it can do at a speed of 5 - 7.5 mph. This speed falls within the range of the distance from Jerusalem to the proposed river / valley site:<br /><br />https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dromedary<br /><br />Steve<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-88725952154504539082020-01-24T12:08:00.448-06:002020-01-24T12:08:00.448-06:00Have yet to see one with the sea and water flowing...Have yet to see one with the sea and water flowing into it. Not saying it doesn’t happen but it seems uncommon. Based on the pictures, it appears the water sinks back into the ground before it gets too far. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-5484936239323903322020-01-24T07:09:02.409-06:002020-01-24T07:09:02.409-06:00Jeff has long declared dearly held LDS beliefs as ...Jeff has long declared dearly held LDS beliefs as errant, making Jeff a massive critic. China declared they will change, but at their own pace, not overnight the way the soviet union collapsed. For some, the change movement of MLK was not fast enough and they favored the more radical calls of Malcolm X. Jeff is a critic that attacks those that favor a more immediate acceptance of truth, calling them "critics" with a derisive tone. It is just more the un-Christlike hate he struggles with.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-82828526686603957252020-01-24T04:48:16.329-06:002020-01-24T04:48:16.329-06:00Actually, supposed "apologist" give up m...Actually, supposed "apologist" give up massive ground all the time. That is exactly why they are so bent on finding obscure items to demand ground back.<br /><br />Anyone that insists the Lamanites are not the principal ancestors of the Native Americans, is a "critic". That makes everyone a critic.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-85087045944347360022020-01-23T22:59:23.664-06:002020-01-23T22:59:23.664-06:00Anon @2:14 has effectively nailed this coffin shut...Anon @2:14 has effectively nailed this coffin shut once and for all. Unless the apologists are demanding ground they'd NEVER give another. Case closed. Next idea, Jeff?<br /><br />And Jay, you should look up basic information on the life of river systems. There's no self-respecting scientist who would dare claim we can learn a darn thing about a river's course hundreds of years ago merely from the satellite imagery of today. Just look at how the Mississippi has changed course over the last 150 years. You'd NEVER know it to look at it from space. Go ahead and try to prove me wrong. It'll be a waste of your time. Especially since the complete lack of camels to begin with effectively shuts this whole dumb argument right down.<br /><br />And Jeff, regarding your insufferable wall of responses: I skipped those. Not worth my time for your nonsense, what with all the camels you're straining at.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-23055374998309765132020-01-23T17:46:48.226-06:002020-01-23T17:46:48.226-06:00Hundreds of photos posted to Google Maps by touris...Hundreds of photos posted to Google Maps by tourists of Wadi Tayyib al-Ism seem to show water flowing continuously into the Red Sea. The volume of water flow varies. This video shows that sometimes it is A LOT OF WATER.<br /><br />https://www.google.com/maps/place/Wadi+Tayyib+Al+Ism/@28.5598732,34.8021448,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m8!1e5!3m6!1sAF1QipNHTMhFXuTo5dmytLBlzECT6Fi85RW_XRt24809!2e10!3e10!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipNHTMhFXuTo5dmytLBlzECT6Fi85RW_XRt24809%3Dw203-h369-k-no!7i352!8i640!4m5!3m4!1s0x15ab3c3b5169300b:0xbb03a6a9811d6f60!8m2!3d28.5598732!4d34.8021448?hl=enJay Wanless Southwickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14952170093695756790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-76241114437089176232020-01-23T15:34:28.568-06:002020-01-23T15:34:28.568-06:00Jeff's big list of ifs.Jeff's big list of ifs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-13878968452797615922020-01-23T14:14:11.418-06:002020-01-23T14:14:11.418-06:00You’re assuming camels—a detail never mentioned in...You’re assuming camels—a detail never mentioned in the entire account of Lehi’s exodus. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-9005474089338656282020-01-23T13:09:18.656-06:002020-01-23T13:09:18.656-06:00Just noticed OKs response. As per usual, he made m...Just noticed OKs response. As per usual, he made my argument, only much more eloquently. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com