tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post6774371314423557025..comments2023-11-02T07:25:45.884-05:00Comments on Mormanity - a blog for those interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: Imagination: The Secret and Often Missing Ingredient in CharityJeff Lindsayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-3136057378581863322012-12-08T10:01:36.351-06:002012-12-08T10:01:36.351-06:00It has been my observation that fat people tend to...It has been my observation that fat people tend to invoke feelings of endearment. I hear horizontal stripes can enhance any fatten effect the cape may have.<br /><br />For some, carefully grounding of assessments can be “monotonous”, but I find the exercise relaxing from time to time. I think you are conceding that we have successfully identified the source of your anger and hostility, that is your frustration with my exposure of your deliberately false reasoning.<br /><br />To assist you in grounding your assessments of anger and hostile feelings on my part, I will need some more explanation. The last I recall you did not explain why comparing Joseph Smith with David Koresh constitutes hostility. Can you go into more detail regarding your anger and hostility towards the Branch Davidians? This will give me a better understanding what anger and hostility means to you.Mormographyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00876509006690501141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-41917283093307427602012-12-02T06:51:49.763-06:002012-12-02T06:51:49.763-06:00But seriously, why do you bear such hostile feelin...But seriously, why do you bear such hostile feelings? It's monotonous. Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-37625942171216047972012-12-02T06:47:39.891-06:002012-12-02T06:47:39.891-06:00You're so puzzling, Mormography. What makes yo...You're so puzzling, Mormography. What makes you so angry? There must be more than just my "sprinting away with a cape of phony and false indignation flowing behind" me. Is the cape itself? I've been worried that it makes me look fat. Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-23200955679269095452012-11-29T13:05:17.355-06:002012-11-29T13:05:17.355-06:00There it is. Once again, Mormanity sprinting away...There it is. Once again, Mormanity sprinting away with a cape of phony and false indignation flowing behind him. I successfully exposed him. Out of frustration he hits and runs with sweeping claims of global proportions, putting words in my mouth (see “alleged stupidity of the Book of Mormon” above), and mental machinations of claims that were never made (see above: single deleted link alone equates to Mormanity speaking for the Mormon Church) Instead of taking personal responsibility, he predictably concludes that he is the victim the misbehavior of others, not his.<br /><br />The answer to his question above, “Why am I even trying here?” is his “trying” is an attempt to construct an artificial universe where he pretends he is the genuine and objective one, not those who state solid facts which make him uncomfortable (see the-116-pages item above being dismissed as “your take”).<br /><br />Usually, such repeated orbital assessments with weak to no grounding in retaliation to demonstration of false reasoning are indicative of either incomplete emotional development or deliberate attempts to deceive. Mormanity’s inconsistency has been so consistency demonstrated it is now a matter of established fact that in regards to the subject matter he is nothing more than a broken clock. Too much effort is required to determine the two times day he is not wrong to be of any utility.Mormographyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00876509006690501141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-23208000017429528212012-09-05T16:38:36.186-05:002012-09-05T16:38:36.186-05:00Mormanity,
I have not read Grant Palmer’s book. ...Mormanity,<br /><br />I have not read Grant Palmer’s book. But from what I gather Grant Palmer is branded anti for suggesting that the discovery of the Gold plates was a visionary experience not a physical one. This explanation helps explain why the box in the ground has never been found. Biblical examples such as Saint Stephen’s theophany suggest that such visionary verses physical experiences are Biblically permissible. Also, even the LDS account suggests that Joseph Smith had such experiences in a room full of sleeping people. However, for some bizarre reason suggesting such a hypothesis justifies slapping a label of defective soul on Palmer. I have read Krakauer’s book, suggesting him anti-Mormon is just silly.<br /><br />Who was it that said tell me what your definition of God is and I will tell you whether or not I believe it? For every person there is different definition of god. Asking the question do you believe in God is just silly. It like manner asking if the BoM is true is just silly. It all depends what is meant by “true”. 100 years ago, claiming that Native Americans are not Lamanites and that there will never be prove of the Book of Mormon, as you do, would have been considered anti-Mormon. What if true did not mean that there were Nephites, Lamanites, and Jaredites in the Western hemisphere, but rather their ships went through some sort of port hole in the middle of the ocean to another planet? If that was the case, would the BoM be any less true? Of course the next logical extension is what if Nephites, Lamanites, and Jaredites did not live on another planet but only in the head of a particular person who sincerely believed they existed.<br /><br />Your entire apologetic defense has been one that suggests that the LDS leadership is merely a fallible administrative body not unlike the CEOs that run the Salvation Army. However, you stop at stating this, but with words state how great the modern LDS divine revelation is. I was hardly the first to notice such glaring omission of specific examples revelations in your posts. So which is it? Fallible administrative body or the only authorized divine mouth piece for giving orders to humanity? If that is a false dichotomy, why? Every time someone such as me attempts to engage in such substantive dialogue you tend to sprint away.<br /><br />I have a somewhat reflexive style, so most complaints you have about me are just complaining about your own reflection. Accusing me of making mounts-out-of-mole-hills, mental machinations, whatever, says more about you than it does me. Accusing me of being easily offend in response to me pointing out incongruence between your behavior and words is silly.Mormographyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00876509006690501141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-81531402603171157282012-08-31T07:03:32.970-05:002012-08-31T07:03:32.970-05:00Suppress links if you must, just be honest about i...Suppress links if you must, just be honest about it. Simplistic name calling is not the way to go and was when you drew first blood. <br /><br />I have gradually decided I am opposed not just to certain antics of apologist, but any form of apologism. It is called faith for a reason. It cannot be reasoned about, it does not make sense, there is nothing wrong with that, and all faiths are in the same boat in this regard.<br /><br />Here were at least two that did not find the overall conclusion “anti”. <br />http://mormanity.blogspot.com/2009/12/rejecting-prophets-for-apparently.html?showComment=1263068904357#c2790992471253146172<br /><br />http://mormanity.blogspot.com/2009/12/rejecting-prophets-for-apparently.html?showComment=1263081752428#c1980656566270184888Mormographyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00876509006690501141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-45233564495583261892012-08-30T16:33:44.938-05:002012-08-30T16:33:44.938-05:00Mormography, even if your blog was neutral or even...Mormography, even if your blog was neutral or even pro-Mormon and I mistakenly equated gentle criticism of me with rabid anti-Mormon behavior, that mistake is not tantamount to claiming that I represent all of Mormonism. Misunderstanding what you are cannot be fairly transmuted into a sweeping claim of global proportions: Jeff claims he speaks for the entire Church because--why was that again?--he, uh, deleted a link to my blog. It's this kind of perplexing mental machinations that make dealing with you really challenging, sir or madam, whatever your gender is. And that tendency to make sweeping accusations and such mountains out of molehills, always wrapped in the shroud of indignation, detracts greatly from any conversation with you. Why am I even trying here? The response is predictable. You'll be outraged and point out how this shows Mormanity thinks he is God or some such charge. Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-16601017575815691512012-08-30T16:23:10.393-05:002012-08-30T16:23:10.393-05:00I guess my challenge is that I struggle to underst...I guess my challenge is that I struggle to understand where you are coming from at times and what facts/assumptions/emotions/paradigms/etc are behind the offenses you experience regarding my blog. From my perspective, the repeated emphasis of your own blog on the alleged stupidity of the Book of Mormon story due to your take on the 116 pages story made it a hostile blog that I did not wish to promote using my blog. Direct links to that critical site promote it and that's not what I'm interested in doing. Not directly anyway. Your writings weren't just attacking me or other apologists. You don't see it that way? Are you telling me that you aren't actually opposed to Church or the Book of Mormon, maybe just the antics of a few irresponsible apologists?Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-43395099692341567322012-08-30T12:14:45.856-05:002012-08-30T12:14:45.856-05:00Nope, not putting anything in your mouth. You cle...Nope, not putting anything in your mouth. You clearly equated my blog whose stated purpose and true to that purpose is “Discussions of Mormanity and other Mormon Apologists reasoning” to “belittling another faith” What other interesting claim have I supposedly put in your mouth? <br /><br />Fact is, independent of what you claim, you clearly behave as if criticism of your behavior is an attack on Mormonism itself. Have I poked an inflated ego?Mormographyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00876509006690501141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-73437471940673410912012-08-30T10:15:51.661-05:002012-08-30T10:15:51.661-05:00Another interesting claim you've put in my mou...Another interesting claim you've put in my mouth, Mormography. Representing the entire Mormon faith? As I pointed out in a recent post, I can't even get my normally very supportive LDS wife to agree with me on some issues. I don't speak for her. I don't speak for the entire faith. I speak for me and hope that some of it is accurate enough to help others. Just about every LDSFAQ page of mine has a disclaimer of this sort: these are just my answers, not official viewpoints of the Church. <br /><br />Daniel Peterson I think would say much the same thing, but I can't speak for him, either. Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-25228587778930076312012-08-30T06:40:45.833-05:002012-08-30T06:40:45.833-05:00It appears that in Mormanity’s mind correcting peo...It appears that in Mormanity’s mind correcting people such as himself equates to belittling another faith. Even the Mormon leadership has grown tired of people such as himself and Daniel Peterson claiming to represent the entire faith. Mormanity must have chosen his handle because in his mind he is Mormonism personified. Now that is just silly.Mormographyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00876509006690501141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-80502718114698078982012-08-29T20:11:22.514-05:002012-08-29T20:11:22.514-05:00Yeah, it was too good to be true to think you were...Yeah, it was too good to be true to think you were actually considering freeing yourself of hate and contention, Mormanity. It was silly of me to think that you might actually be interested in genuine dialogue. Though, you have convinced me that being labeled with deliberate discussion killing terms such as “anti” is the ultimate complement and something to be proud of, depending on who it is coming from (those that incapable of addressing the discussion so they attack the man).Mormographyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00876509006690501141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-30807038931570442762012-08-28T01:27:12.176-05:002012-08-28T01:27:12.176-05:00"...take some positions and reject others, bu..."...take some positions and reject others, but be able to understand both."<br /><br />This was definitely the original intent of critical thinking/reasoning.<br /><br />But heck, words come with baggage, and we know it. I avoid saying I'm atheist in public and opt for agnostic, just to avoid the Dawkins reputationOpenmindednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-78506079061828254232012-08-27T16:32:44.633-05:002012-08-27T16:32:44.633-05:00We emphasize "critical thinking" a lot i...We emphasize "critical thinking" a lot in schools, but it often seems to result in dismissive, throw-out-the-baby-over-a-speck-in-the-bathwater thinking.<br /><br />I wonder whether we should encourage "thorough thinking" instead--take some positions and reject others, but be able to understand both.James Goldberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14422536627746885883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-15405369462733903792012-08-27T15:13:48.199-05:002012-08-27T15:13:48.199-05:00So Eveningsun, what does atheism mean for you and ...<i>So Eveningsun, what does atheism mean for you and do for you?</i><br /><br />Well, among other things, not having a divine source for answering the Big Questions means having to think think through questions of morality oneself, by reading up on what others have said about it, discussing it with others, etc.<br /><br />It also means valuing as much as possible the time one has with friends and loved ones in the here and now. If this mortal existence is the only one we have, then it's crucial to make it count.<br /><br />-- EveningsunAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-84077092893383412542012-08-27T09:57:33.872-05:002012-08-27T09:57:33.872-05:00My mistake for trying to talk to you, Mormography....My mistake for trying to talk to you, Mormography. I guess I should have expected the "more of the same" answer. If you think that a website or blog whose whole purpose is to criticize and belittle another faith and is fixated on criticizing that faith is somehow not "anti" that faith, well, you're welcome to that opinion, but it's silly. Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-4226235056424512282012-08-26T20:39:12.680-05:002012-08-26T20:39:12.680-05:00Here the assessment that I am anti-Mormon is made...<a href="http://mormanity.blogspot.com/2009/12/rejecting-prophets-for-apparently.html?showComment=1263011055448#c2962839091235770087" rel="nofollow">Here </a> the assessment that I am anti-Mormon is made essentially because I am not pro-Mormon, declaring Mormons to be flawed as the rest of humanity equates to declaring "as bad as you say", and for some bizarre reason using comparative religion terminology also makes anti-Mormon to which I responded <a href="http://mormanity.blogspot.com/2009/12/rejecting-prophets-for-apparently.html?showComment=1263068360539#c987188079998114020" rel="nofollow">here</a>Mormographyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00876509006690501141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-42674211857447252822012-08-26T18:48:54.813-05:002012-08-26T18:48:54.813-05:00Mormography, are you sure I equated "anti-Mor...Mormography, are you sure I equated "anti-Mormon" with merely not being "pro-Mormon"? I've explicitly renounced such use of that term, so if I made or appeared to make that mistake somewhere, I'd certainly like to correct it. Can you point to the offending passage? Or is this just not quite fully pro-Mormon gainsaying?Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-75700123032110259842012-08-26T18:43:48.973-05:002012-08-26T18:43:48.973-05:00Atheism is not off the table. I have had that dial...Atheism is not off the table. I have had that dialog in various forms with some of my friends. It's important to realize that being atheist, contrary to the stereotypes offered by some believers, does not necessarily mean living a life without morality, without spirituality, without charity and altruistic service. I've been deeply impressed with the high values, altruism, and loving service I find here in the officially atheist nation of China, for example. And though I know very little of it, the literature of humanism seems to be be filled with a focus on moral issues, some of which even religious conservatives might find very enlightening and agreeable (e.g., Irving Babbitt). <br /><br />So Eveningsun, what does atheism mean for you and do for you? Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-81905991939247570842012-08-26T13:16:26.102-05:002012-08-26T13:16:26.102-05:00What do they see? Is there something I'm missi...<i>What do they see? Is there something I'm missing? Is the problem, perhaps, me and my lack of understanding? Is it possible that those men are good men trying to do what's right?</i><br /><br />Wonderful questions. I'm wondering (seriously), do you ever ask them of the atheist, or only of other theists? Do you ever ask, "Is it even possible that there is no God at all?" Or is that particular question off the table?<br /><br />-- EveningsunAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-88212153397486657522012-08-26T07:39:46.180-05:002012-08-26T07:39:46.180-05:00local-16Mormography,
Your post reveals that you ar...local-16Mormography,<br />Your post reveals that you are new to Jeffs blogs. An example of his respect for nonmormon/nonpracticing mormons can be found in a previous post, A Little <br />Slack For Ex-Mormons.<br />Posting at 4:42 AM can cloud your thoughts. My employment works me through the 'graveyard' shift, I know.hnhojnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-60207650671923269022012-08-26T04:42:58.783-05:002012-08-26T04:42:58.783-05:00A refreshing moderation from your previous positio...A refreshing moderation from your previous positions that label people as anti-Mormon merely because they are not pro-Mormon.Mormographyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00876509006690501141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-18677413519841475312012-08-25T21:08:38.690-05:002012-08-25T21:08:38.690-05:00Great post, Jeff!Great post, Jeff!Paul Senzeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02573580670699332421noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-46901753272379444602012-08-25T17:12:37.595-05:002012-08-25T17:12:37.595-05:00Mocking and point the finger are two of the greate...Mocking and point the finger are two of the greatest sins a man or woman can commit. One who does it has no charity.jinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-25752786053042414122012-08-25T08:31:32.956-05:002012-08-25T08:31:32.956-05:00Like always, great post. I know what you mean. I...Like always, great post. I know what you mean. I would always cringe when people (especially in my mission in the Bible belt) would mock other religions when if one isn't careful their same line of reasoning could come back to critique us.<br /><br />And I know what you mean by these intelligent Muslims. I had roommates at BYU who were Muslim and then went on to get a PhD at UC Irvine alongside muslims and the whole way I could see they were both very smart and loved their religion.Joseph Smidthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02583891162785742138noreply@blogger.com