tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post6870182562580184920..comments2023-11-02T07:25:45.884-05:00Comments on Mormanity - a blog for those interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: Remembering the Words of JesusJeff Lindsayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comBlogger152125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-16618313702225961242012-03-22T15:24:02.713-05:002012-03-22T15:24:02.713-05:00Mormons teach that Jesus and Satan were "spir...Mormons teach that Jesus and Satan were "spirit brothers". St. Paul never taught such filth!<br /><br />But St. Paul did tell us how to detect servants of satan:<br /><br />4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached<br />13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. <br />14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. <br />15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve. 2Cor 11<br /><br />Mormons (and all other cults including JW's, Catholics, SDA's etc.) are simply servants of satan, faking that they are servants of righteousness!<br /><br />I wonder how they n\enjoy their status as servants of Lucifer?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-2666820385558348102011-02-26T10:47:03.108-06:002011-02-26T10:47:03.108-06:00Great questions, and, in all honesty, I'm not ...Great questions, and, in all honesty, I'm not sure I know the answers. I can hypothesize, but these are questions for which the answers might not be as clearly revealved as some other things, imo. I'll give it a shot, but please understand I'm wandering into my own "see through a glass, darkly" territory now. <br /><br />"Does He want our perfection because there is no other way for us to live with Him in eternity (because of His holy nature and our lack of holiness) or because we would be denying our divine potential to become as Him, or a combination of both?" <br /><br />I think he wants our perfection because he loves us - and I don't think it's more complicated than that. I think, somehow, unfathomably, he created us to partake in his glory and perfection as more than just cheerleaders - that there was an element of selfless love and condescension (in the purest, Biblical meaning) to the creation of our spirits and this sphere that bridges the unbridgable gap, so to speak. <br /><br />I don't know how to frame it other than as an act of indescribable, undeserved, gracious love - so I don't have an intellectual answer to your question. <br /><br />"How is the blessing of all children at odds with our hope for perfection?" <br /><br />I don't think it is at odds; I think our hope for perfection is a sub-set of our belief that he blesses all of his children to whatever extent possible. The principle that he blesses all - and that we can't tell fully who will be blessed to what degree when it comes right down to it - is meant, I believe, to help us be charitable and loving as he is, but, unfortunately, that doesn't happen in too many cases (including my own, fully). <br /><br />"Are we all predestined to godliness and simply asked to accept the path of obedience to invoke it?" <br /><br />I don't know. Truly, I don't know. There is a debate among Mormon scholars about whether or not there are "multiple mortal probations" - which is one way such an ending would be possible. Our scriptures lean away from that idea, and it certainly isn't taught actively in the LDS Church (and simply can't be, imo, from a purely practical standpoint) - but there are enough passages that hint at the possibility, when combined with our belief in eternal progression toward completion, wholeness and full development made up of multiple "stages of existence", that it is possible to believe this life is not the only chance we have to accept and become. <br /><br />(That's a monster sentence. I hope you don't have to read it lots of times to understand what I tried to say. *grin*) <br /><br />We don't believe everyone is predestined to Heaven or Hell in the classic Calvinist sense of the term, but I can't answer your actual question with any degree of certainly. I just don't know - but, personally, I'd like to believe so.Papa Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06704974609266088416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-13220579731126456802011-02-26T09:55:46.846-06:002011-02-26T09:55:46.846-06:00And does He want our perfection because there is n...And does He want our perfection because there is no other way for us to live with Him in eternity (because of His holy nature and our lack of holiness) or because we would be denying our divine potential to become as Him, or a combination of both?<br /><br />How is the blessing of all children at odds with our hope for perfection? Are we all predestined to godliness and simply asked to accept the path of obedience to invoke it? <br /><br />So many questions...so sorry...thank you for your infinite patience!Cindyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15483013394635750710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-86329987626165252112011-02-25T13:44:15.220-06:002011-02-25T13:44:15.220-06:00Not only that he wants it to be thus, but that he ...Not only that he wants it to be thus, but that he can and will do it for all who strive to "come follow me". <br /><br />I know that what he wants and what he gets are synonymous for many, but I can't make it that simple given how many times the Bible states clearly that things didn't go as he wanted them to go - how many times he is said to have wept - the reference to trying to gather Israel as a hen gathers her chicks "but you would not" - etc. <br /><br />Also, I wish it were a given throughout Christianity that God really does want to bless ALL his children. Unfortunately, there is a strong predestination creed in many denominations and congregations that essentially denies that concept - but that's a discussion for a different post. *grin*Papa Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06704974609266088416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-124027837636589862011-02-25T08:39:27.927-06:002011-02-25T08:39:27.927-06:00Thanks Papa, Sorry for my delayed response...I re...Thanks Papa, Sorry for my delayed response...I really want to consider what you are saying before I respond.<br /><br />So your hope in Christ is that He wants you to be perfect as He is?Cindyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15483013394635750710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-72207925144284237932011-02-16T23:05:45.833-06:002011-02-16T23:05:45.833-06:00"So then is the difference coming from what t..."So then is the difference coming from what that hope is in Christ?" <br /><br />I think so, based on our conversation so far. <br /><br />"What is your hope?" <br /><br />This is from a previous comment of mine. I don't mean to be flippant by copying it here, but I think it addresses your question. I added a few things now [in brackets]. If not (if you want more detail), I'll try to elaborate more: <br /><br />****The part of the "good news" where I think we differ is the idea taught in multiple places in the New Testament (and not in the Book of Mormon, btw) that there is an unbelievable POWER in the grace / atonement that can make the unthinkable a reality - that can take a fallen, natural, carnal, irredeemable woman or man and literally "save" (keep from being discarded),"redeem" (purchase) and "liberate" (free from external constraint) that otherwise irredeemable person. [New addition: a power that can bridge the otherwise unbridgeable chasm that the Fall created - I have NO problem with the idea that there WAS an unbridgeable chasm / gulf between God and man as a result of the fall of Adam and Eve; I believe the "Good News" is that the chasm / gulf was bridged by Jesus - as taught in the NEW Testament.] <br /><br />I believe this unfathomable power is the heart of the Good News of the Gospel - that when Jesus commands to be perfect (complete, whole, fully developed) even as his father is perfect - or when Jesus prays that we may be one even as he and his father are one - or when Paul writes that we will be heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ - or when John says that we will see him as he is because we will be like him - and SO many more . . . that these statements truly mean something in a real, meaningful way and aren't just nice platitudes.<br /><br />To me, the [hope of the] Good News of the Gospel is that Jesus and Paul and John and others really meant exactly what they said, even though exactly HOW Jesus performs that unimaginable transformation [how he bridges that otherwise unbridgeable gap] is so totally beyond our comprehension that we just can't understand it - and it seems ridiculous and even arrogant to the eye and heart that can't believe. Since it is so irrational and illogical, it has to stay in the realm of faith - the substance of things "hoped for" and the evidence of things "not seen".**** <br /><br />So, to answer your question, directly, that's my hope in Christ - that He really, truly, actually meant what is attributed to Him in the Gospels - and that the same can be said of what was said later by the apostles in their epistles.Papa Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06704974609266088416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-57197164567186783542011-02-15T22:12:23.086-06:002011-02-15T22:12:23.086-06:00Thanks so much Papa D, and I apologize for my dela...Thanks so much Papa D, and I apologize for my delayed response. Besides having to look up the word orthoprax, I feel as though I truly understand your post. I appreciate the thoughtful way you laid out the elements of your belief and how you pulled it altogether at the end for me.<br /><br />I think we share similar beliefs in terms of our definition of faith:<br /><br />"our "faith" is that for which we hope in Christ and the evidence we see for that hope - a belief, yes, but such a strong belief that it actually compels us to act on our hope."<br /><br />A hope in Christ that is manifested in the way we live our lives...right? <br /><br />So then is the difference coming from what that hope is in Christ? What is your hope? (Can you even believe that after all of your work, I still have questions? **smile**)Cindyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15483013394635750710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-28980495445017588912011-02-13T18:06:07.540-06:002011-02-13T18:06:07.540-06:00Sorry, one more thing I meant to say but didn'...Sorry, one more thing I meant to say but didn't: <br /><br />I'd love to share talks. Send an e-mail to the address at the bottom of my personal blog with a copy of yours. I'll send you my outline, since I very rarely write out my talks.Papa Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06704974609266088416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-39546301346621638192011-02-13T18:04:20.413-06:002011-02-13T18:04:20.413-06:00Cindy, one word of caution, if you will:
There i...Cindy, one word of caution, if you will: <br /><br />There is a chance your friend won't see all these things exactly like I do. Unlike what is believed by some of our harshest critics, Mormons are not programmed cultists who all think alike. There is a WIDE spectrum of beliefs regarding many things. You probably realize that, but it needs to be said often - just in case. <br /><br />I personally am an orthoprax member in most of the ways I "live" my religion, but my beliefs range from solidly orthodox to radically heterodox when compared to other members - depending on the topic. I have no idea where on the spectrum your friend is, but there's a decent chance she won't answer the exact same way I do. <br /><br />Again, you probably recognize that, but there might be a limit to how you can use my answers to understand her.Papa Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06704974609266088416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-42309354424147509662011-02-13T17:57:14.366-06:002011-02-13T17:57:14.366-06:00I like Paul's definition of faith in Hebrews: ...I like Paul's definition of faith in Hebrews: "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." <br /><br />I also like that he talks in that chapter about it being the motivating force behind action - that he describes its EFFECT on people and what they DO. He gives a list of people who had faith and to whom that faith was imputed for righteousness - and he does so by listing what they DID as a result of their faith. Iow, "faith" can be described as a noun ("substance" and "evidence"), but, in full context, to be "effective" or "efficacious", it also must be described as being "exercised" or "planted and nurtured" or in combination with some other action verb. <br /><br />In the LDS Church, the most commonly quoted verse on faith probably is in James 2, where it says, "Faith without works is dead, being alone." I like that, but it's just a concise way to say what Paul said in Hebrews. <br /><br />Interestingly, Luther and some other early Protestant reformers didn't like The Epistle of James and thought it should not have been included in the Bible - specifically because it was so obviously opposed to their view of faith and works. The irony is that they didn't object to Paul and Hebrews, even though the message is exactly the same. Paul just wasn't as blunt as James. <br /><br />In "the Gospel", faith is in Jesus - as in, "We believe the first principle of the Gospel is faith in the Lord, Jesus Christ;" Frankly, I think faith gets devalued often by too many Mormons - almost taken for granted in a real way in their quest for knowledge. After all, the Doctrine & Covenants says that some people are given the gift to know that Jesus is the Christ, while some people are given the gift to believe those who know. <br /><br />I also don't like some of the common examples of faith that are used to teach children about it. Believing a light will go on when you flip the light switch is NOT faith, and it shouldn't be taught as such - even to very small children who can't understand the full concept yet. <br /><br />So, to me, our "faith" is that for which we hope in Christ and the evidence we see for that hope - a belief, yes, but such a strong belief that it actually compels us to act on our hope. It is Christ-centered, and the examples we use ought to be Christ-centered, as well - like those Paul used in Hebrews.Papa Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06704974609266088416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-50440526514679907512011-02-13T08:01:11.404-06:002011-02-13T08:01:11.404-06:00Papa, I appreciate your time whenever you're ...Papa, I appreciate your time whenever you're able to offer it...I'm talking in church today too...want to share talks? I'd love to see what you say!Cindyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15483013394635750710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-49186251109459039452011-02-12T21:39:25.738-06:002011-02-12T21:39:25.738-06:00Cindy, I finished my talk outline prep and checked...Cindy, I finished my talk outline prep and checked back in here, but I don't have time to answer your question yet. I just want you to know I am not brushing it off, even though I did comment on a couple of other threads here.Papa Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06704974609266088416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-30801224583136679712011-02-12T10:27:19.910-06:002011-02-12T10:27:19.910-06:00Papa D,
Thanks so much. No hurry. I am apprecia...Papa D,<br /><br />Thanks so much. No hurry. I am appreciative of your time and perspective. Good luck with your talk.Cindyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15483013394635750710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-74792889102224562732011-02-12T10:18:38.094-06:002011-02-12T10:18:38.094-06:00"I think sometimes she perceives me to be adv..."I think sometimes she perceives me to be adversarial because I am always asking for definitions." <br /><br />Yeah, unfortunately past experiences get in the way sometimes of open communication, but questions are critical to understanding - if they are asked in the spirit of real understanding and not judgment, which I believe you do. <br /><br />Also, I really do believe some simply are given the "gift" of being able to believe - that the classic definition of "faith" Paul uses is easier for them than for others, and it often is hard for them to understand those whom they perceive to be lacking in that faith because they are natural questioners. To put it differently, without any condescension or scorn toward either type, the settlers and the explorers always have an uneasy relationship - simply because they think differently and have a hard understanding and valuing the other perspective as just as good and valid as theirs. <br /><br />Anyway, ironically, I am putting the final touches on a talk for tomorrow in church that is about accepting Jesus as the Redeemer and receiving His image in our countenance. I am going to be very busy today and tomorrow, since I am speaking in two different congregations, so it might take me a while to get to your questions. I apologize in advance for that, but I promise I will get to them - probably in separate comments for each question, if that's ok with you.Papa Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06704974609266088416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-15232379514657165442011-02-12T09:03:08.375-06:002011-02-12T09:03:08.375-06:00Papa D,
Thanks so much...I appreciate your time s...Papa D,<br /><br />Thanks so much...I appreciate your time so much here, and I will be honest by saying that in a way, I am using you to help me to understand the beliefs of my dear friend so that we can communicate better. I think sometimes she perceives me to be adversarial because I am always asking for definitions. <br /><br />Knowing that, could you help me by clearly defining what you mean by a few more things? I completely understand if you say no...I do honor your time...<br /><br />What do each of the elements of the gospel you describe mean to you?<br /><br />1)faith; <br />2)repentance;<br />3)baptism;<br />4)following the Holy Ghost / receiving the Spirit of God / being spirit-breathed / any other such verbiage that denotes an attempt to ascertain the will of God and hearken to it;<br />5)enduring to the endCindyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15483013394635750710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-66296937319649976312011-02-12T00:28:47.030-06:002011-02-12T00:28:47.030-06:00How do I define the Gospel?
I wish I could do s...How do I define the Gospel? <br /><br />I wish I could do so in one short sentence without simply using the standard "Good News" definition, but I think you want me to elaborate on what I perceive the "good news" to be. So, here goes: <br /><br />Good News <br /><br />a) God's love and grace extend to ALL, not just to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. ALL can be partakers of that love and grace and be "saved" as a result. Paul said it best, perhaps, in 1 Corinthians 15 when he said, "As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (That's from memory, so it might be off in a word or two.) Thus, the "good news" is that the atonement of the Christ is universal and applied freely - in that all are resurrected and end up better off as a result of mortality than they were before mortality. (with the exception of those who decide consciously to follow and serve Satan - the "Sons of Perdition" - those who look God in the eye, acknowledge he is God, and then spit at him and serve the devil) <br /><br />b) In practical terms, I really like the construct of the Gospel as 1) faith; 2) repentance; 3) baptism [or any outward, symbolic manifestation of an internal commitment]; 4) following the Holy Ghost / receiving the Spirit of God / being spirit-breathed / any other such verbiage that denotes an attempt to ascertain the will of God and hearken to it; 5) enduring to the end. <br /><br />I like the order - a reliance on Jesus first and foremost, followed by a sincere attempt to allow change to occur within us, followed by a communal declaration of our commitment that includes a physical act that gives us a tangible expression of that commitment, followed by an effort to tap into God's will on an on-going basis, extended to the very end. In a way, it's nothing more than saying, "Have faith in Jesus Christ; exhibit that faith in your own life through trying to follow him; exhibit that faith symbolically; strive to continue in faith; never stop living by faith." <br /><br />c) The part of the "good news" where I think we differ is the idea taught in multiple places in the New Testament (and not in the Book of Mormon, btw) that there is an unbelievable POWER in the grace / atonement that can make the unthinkable a reality - that can take a fallen, natural, carnal, irredeemable woman or man and literally "save" (keep from being discarded),"redeem" (purchase) and "liberate" (free from external constraint) that otherwise irredeemable person. <br /><br />I believe this unfathomable power is the heart of the Good News of the Gospel - that when Jesus commands to be perfect (complete, whole, fully developed) even as his father is perfect - or when Jesus prays that we may be one even as he and his father are one - or when Paul writes that we will be heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ - or when John says that we will see him as he is because we will be like him - and SO many more . . . that these statements truly mean something in a real, meaningful way and aren't just nice platitudes. <br /><br />To me, the Good News of the Gospel is that Jesus and Paul and John and others really meant exactly what they said, even though exactly HOW he performs that unimaginable transformation is so totally beyond our comprehension that we just can't understand it - and it seems ridiculous and even arrogant to the eye and heart that can't believe. Since it is so irrational and illogical, it has to stay in the realm of faith - the substance of things "hoped for" and the evidence of things "not seen". <br /><br />I hope that makes sense to you. <br /><br />How do you define the Gospel?Papa Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06704974609266088416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-19612754549920356542011-02-12T00:28:20.989-06:002011-02-12T00:28:20.989-06:00Again, thanks for the clarification. It was the f...Again, thanks for the clarification. It was the following sentence that threw me: <br /><br />"If I go through my life without admitting my position as a sinner and without choosing to accept Christ as my Savior I will receive the wages of sin, which is eternal death with no hope of being in heaven." <br /><br />I didn't apply it only to you as someone who has heard of and understood about Christ. I thought it might be an application you make to everyone, since that is a common application, unfortunately, imo.Papa Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06704974609266088416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-65226152449130355382011-02-11T21:10:31.585-06:002011-02-11T21:10:31.585-06:00Papa D,
Thanks for describing what you perceive t...Papa D,<br /><br />Thanks for describing what you perceive to be the difference in our beliefs. You may think it is semantics, and maybe it is, so perhaps a few definitions would help.<br />Could we start with you telling me your definition of the gospel?Cindyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15483013394635750710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-9187143182055180832011-02-11T20:54:53.426-06:002011-02-11T20:54:53.426-06:00Wow...your response has me questioning my ability ...Wow...your response has me questioning my ability to express myself in writing! I don't know how you got the idea that I believe that those who don't hear the gospel are damned from what I wrote...wow...<br /><br />I believe that God wrote His law on all our hearts and His greatest wish is for us to admit our need for Him and receive His grace-in whatever form it may take. Just because someone doesn't hear of Christ in their lifetime doesn't predestine someone to eternity in hell.<br /><br />I actually think just the opposite. It is only those who DO hear the truth of the gospel, (that Christ is the way, the truth and the life,) and reject His work by trying to earn their own position in eternity who will lose the chance for eternity in heaven.Cindyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15483013394635750710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-28487489631148622012011-02-10T11:18:11.496-06:002011-02-10T11:18:11.496-06:00Cindy, thanks for that clarification. It is impor...Cindy, thanks for that clarification. It is important, and I really appreciate it. <br /><br />I guess the ONLY disagreement I have now with what you said you believe (the ONLY thing you said that I don't believe myself) is the part about being damned for going through life without confessing and accepting Christ. If I am reading you correctly, and I admit I've not done a good job of that so far, you seem to be saying that those who live and die never hearing about Jesus are damned for it - and that's the terrible puppet master image all over again. That implies God chose some to save and some to damn and there's nothing the damned ones who God made be born at the wrong time and wrong place can do about it. They are damned because God predestined them to damnation. <br /><br />If that's not what you mean, we are in complete agreement - which brings me full circle back to my point about semantics and the words we use for most things. <br /><br />Again, if you don't really mean hardcore predestination for the chosen damned, then the only difference I see is that I believe we are children who can become like our Father, while you don't beleive that. Maybe that is the only place where we really differ - in what we believe to be the very purpose of our existence. How we perceive ourselves in relation to Jesus appears to be identical (to me); it's how we perceive Heavenly Father and our relationship to Him that appears to be the great divide. <br /><br />I only can submit that I believe the idea that we are created to become like our creator is THE central and core concept of the entire Bible, the most important aspect of the Good News Jesus himself taught, and the very heart of the message Paul also taught. It is taught over and over and over again throughout the Bible, culminating in the admonitions and prayers of Jesus himself. <br /><br />If we simply differ in hat regard, so be it. At least understand, please, that I still think the differences you perceive about how we view Jesus are semantic in nature and not substantive.Papa Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06704974609266088416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-30785245799294751452011-02-10T08:02:06.459-06:002011-02-10T08:02:06.459-06:00Papa D,
I don't want to beat a dead horse eit...Papa D,<br /><br />I don't want to beat a dead horse either, but I do want to be sure we understand each other before we drop our sticks *grin to you too*<br /><br />I don't believe that God is an evil "puppet master" or that nothing we do makes a difference. <br /><br />I believe in repentance. It is the first "choice" I must make in my journey of faith. I have to admit that I am a sinner without any hope of being with my Father in Heaven without someone to save me. And I must repent, or turn away, from my sin and turn instead toward Christ as the "way" to get there. <br /><br />Because of the difference between who we believe ourselves, God and Jesus to be, we think differently about what that means. I believe that I am a sinful, created being, eternally separated from the presence of God and without a way to return to Him through anything I can do. I do not think that I am a divine child of God sent to earth to make righteous choices as a part of my eternal progression to godhood.<br /><br />I need a Savior to get me into the family of God so I can be in heaven with Him, and all the rest of His family after I die. If I go through my life without admitting my position as a sinner and without choosing to accept Christ as my Savior I will receive the wages of sin, which is eternal death with no hope of being in heaven.<br /><br />For me, Christ's suffering and death on the cross offered me forgiveness for my sins (all of them, even the ones I haven't committed yet), paid the price of justice required for my sins, bought me back from the bondage of slavery to sin, and allowed me to become a daughter of God through adoption.<br /><br />So once I repent of my sins and turn to Christ as the only way to eternal life with God, I change my belief from that of helping myself to earn my position with God to one that fully accepts Christ's work for me as the only "work" that can assure my eternal place in heaven-the equivalent of your celestial kingdom. So my eternal position with God is established through "grace through faith, without works, so no man can boast" because it is completely Christ's work that determines my afterlife. And once I believe that, it would be a slap in the face of my Savior to "un-believe" it.<br /><br />But just because my eternal position with God is secure through Christ, that doesn't mean that I am not asked to do works. I am asked to dedicate the rest of my life sharing the wonderful news of grace with others. I am asked to submit my life to the scrutiny of God's refining fire so that He can purify areas in which I still try to take control for myself. And for these works, I will be awarded crowns of glory, which I will gladly throw at the feet of my Savior on that day I meet Him in heaven in exchange for the phrase I long to hear, "well done, my good and faithful servant" and the gift of the full knowledge and glory of God.Cindyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15483013394635750710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-72743281963422274592011-02-09T15:20:27.243-06:002011-02-09T15:20:27.243-06:00Hi Cindy,
I have to look at you last couple of com...Hi Cindy,<br />I have to look at you last couple of comments and I am like PapaD. lets take some comments one at a time to see if I can understand you a little better.<br /><br /><i><b>Me-I believe that I am both justified (to eternal life) AND sanctified (to the presence with God) by faith in Christ.</b></i><br /><br />So it isn't Christs atonement that makes this possible?<br /><br /><i>LDS-The Savior’s Atonement makes it possible for us to overcome spiritual death. Although all people will be resurrected, only those who accept the Atonement will be saved from spiritual death. Christ’s Atonement makes it possible to be saved from sin if we do our part.</i><br /><br />And for our part, although there is a difference, is the our part in you case this, <i><b>Me-I was justified completely in one moment by my understanding and acceptance that His sacrifice assures me of eternal life with God </b></i>? Wasn't the sacrifice that assures you eternal life with God the atonment?Richhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05816549810869986623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-32919973664372595742011-02-09T13:55:21.747-06:002011-02-09T13:55:21.747-06:00"Once I believe in Christ as the only way to ..."Once I believe in Christ as the only way to eternal life AND life in the presence of God, nothing I can do will affect my position either way." <br /><br />Cindy, I agree with just about everything else you said, but this is where we disagree completely. You believe this; I see it as one of the greatest abominations in modern Christianity and a construct of a horrible mis-interpretation on the part of John Calvin and those who followed him. Predestination eliminates free will at the extreme, and it turns God into a puppet-master who roasts and tortures some people at his own will and pleasure based on nothing they've done, earned or deserved. That's the flip side of the grace such a position espouses, and I just can't accept that - especially since I don't believe it accurately reflects the Biblical teachings. <br /><br />In a nutshell, destroying repentance, imo, is denying the grace and atonement of Jesus Christ. <br /><br />I know we disagree on that, so I really don't want to argue about it. It is what it is, and I have no problem with you believing what you believe. I just think it's very, very wrong. *grin* <br /><br />Neither one of us is going to change the other's mind, I'm sure. <br /><br />No hard feelings?Papa Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06704974609266088416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-84627249399519041832011-02-09T07:39:30.917-06:002011-02-09T07:39:30.917-06:00Papa D,
Here are a few more:
Me-I am also being ...Papa D,<br /><br />Here are a few more:<br /><br />Me-I am also being continually sanctified by Him as I submit to the refining of my faith in Him through the Spirit. (Philippians 2:13 "for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.")<br /><br />LDS-The Lord has said, “If you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God”. Joseph Smith taught: “It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God. … He was once a man like us; … God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did” (GP chap 47)<br /><br />Me-Once I believe in Christ as the only way to eternal life AND life in the presence of God, nothing I can do will affect my position either way.<br /><br />LDS-It is better to obey the commandments because we fear punishment than not to obey them at all. But we will be much happier if we obey God because we love Him and want to obey Him. When we obey Him freely, He can bless us freely. He said, “I, the Lord, … delight to honor those who serve me in righteousness and in truth unto the end” (D&C 76:5). Obedience also helps us progress and become more like our Heavenly Father. But those who do nothing until they are commanded and then keep the commandments unwillingly lose their reward (see D&C 58:26–29). (GP chap 35)<br /><br />Yes, I will be judged for my sins, but they have been forgiven by Christ (if I accept Him as my Savior). Hebrews 7:27 " Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself."<br /><br />LDS-Repentance is the way provided for us to become free from our sins and receive forgiveness for them. Sins slow our spiritual progression and can even stop it. Repentance makes it possible for us to grow and develop spiritually again. (GP chap 19)<br /><br />As I have come to understand more of what my friend believes, I have also come to see how some of her situations are caused by her desire to earn her blessings and position with God. I weep for her and long for her to accept the fullness of God's gift of forgiveness and eternal life through the sacrifice of Christ.Cindyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15483013394635750710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-25702484382998661622011-02-09T07:39:01.371-06:002011-02-09T07:39:01.371-06:00Dear Papa D,
I am certainly not here to tell you ...Dear Papa D,<br /><br />I am certainly not here to tell you what you believe. <br /><br />Actually I am here because my dearest friend of 15 years, (LDS) gave my a Gospel Principles book for Christmas two years ago and challenged me to accept the greater truth of Mormonism. <br /><br />I read it, as well as the quad, and was shocked and saddened by the differences in what we believe, especially when many of our conversations were about keeping Christ as the center of our lives! <br /><br />Like her, I hear you saying that we believe the same things, but the writings of the church do not bear that out. <br /><br />In order to demonstrate what I mean, here are a few comments from my last post compared with the teachings of the church.<br /><br />Me-I believe that I am both justified (to eternal life) AND sanctified (to the presence with God) by faith in Christ.<br /><br />LDS-The Savior’s Atonement makes it possible for us to overcome spiritual death. Although all people will be resurrected, only those who accept the Atonement will be saved from spiritual death. Christ’s Atonement makes it possible to be saved from sin if we do our part. (GP chap 12). <br /><br />Me-I was justified completely in one moment by my understanding and acceptance that His sacrifice assures me of eternal life with God (1 Peter 2:24 "and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.")<br /><br />LDS-President Joseph Fielding Smith said, “In order to obtain the exaltation we must accept the gospel and all its covenants; and take upon us the obligations which the Lord has offered; and walk in the light and the understanding of the truth; and ‘live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God’” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:43).<br /><br />To be exalted, we first must place our faith in Jesus Christ and then endure in that faith to the end of our lives. Our faith in Him must be such that we repent of our sins and obey His commandments.<br /><br />He commands us all to receive certain ordinances:<br /><br />1.We must be baptized.<br />2.We must receive the laying on of hands to be confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ and to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.<br />3.Brethren must receive the Melchizedek Priesthood and magnify their callings in the priesthood.<br />4.We must receive the temple endowment.<br />5.We must be married for eternity, either in this life or in the next.<br /><br />In addition to receiving the required ordinances, the Lord commands all of us to:<br /><br />1.Love God and our neighbors.<br />2.Keep the commandments.<br />3.Repent of our wrongdoings.<br />4.Search out our kindred dead and receive the saving ordinances of the gospel for them.<br />5.Attend our Church meetings as regularly as possible so we can renew our baptismal covenants by partaking of the sacrament.<br />6.Love our family members and strengthen them in the ways of the Lord.<br />7.Have family and individual prayers every day.<br />8.Teach the gospel to others by word and example.<br />9.Study the scriptures.<br />10.Listen to and obey the inspired words of the prophets of the Lord.Cindyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15483013394635750710noreply@blogger.com