tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post7246926032767177285..comments2023-11-02T07:25:45.884-05:00Comments on Mormanity - a blog for those interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: Clement of Alexandria, Temple Mysteries, and the Divine Potential of ManJeff Lindsayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-53330911658516309782015-06-14T07:43:04.946-05:002015-06-14T07:43:04.946-05:00If you would like to complain about topics unrelat...If you would like to complain about topics unrelated to this post, I recommend getting your own blog.Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-9720755327763664882015-06-13T19:05:13.725-05:002015-06-13T19:05:13.725-05:00Orbiting Kolob,
The only option is to believe al...Orbiting Kolob, <br /><br />The only option is to believe all utterances are from God. As Elder Nelson recently stated (Oct.2014), the prophet's counsel is "untainted, unvarnished, unmotivated by any personal aspiration, and utterly true!"<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-10955570002177342822015-06-13T11:38:17.187-05:002015-06-13T11:38:17.187-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04668073406352787818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-20029876910032447132015-06-13T10:10:28.260-05:002015-06-13T10:10:28.260-05:00Jeff, I'm not demanding perfection from imperf...Jeff, I'm not demanding perfection from imperfect humans, but do you draw a distinction between one who admits an error and one who stands by their deed? It seems to me you ignore this aspect when it comes to LDS apostles and prophets.flying fignoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-87423425586231354222015-06-10T18:54:59.049-05:002015-06-10T18:54:59.049-05:00But of course character matters. Each leader and e...But of course character matters. Each leader and each of us will be held accountable for what they do and who they have become. Being a leader does not remove the possibility of serious sin and major errors of judgment. Harshly judging such men for their words is the greatest expertise of man and you can find things to accuse almost anyone of having character flaws. But we do not allow every statement of every man who becomes a leader in the Church to be something binding and authoritative. We don't have to justify angry statements--they aren't what we teach or who we are. <br /><br />The teachings of the apostles and prophets about non-LDS people is not that they are damned. In fact, no other Church opens up the gates of mercy so wide as we do, offering the full blessings of the Gospel even to those who never heard a word of it. We respect the good people of the earth from all faiths, and look forward to being with them in the next life. We hope all will eventually learn of and accept Christ, of course. Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1823783948308974412015-06-09T14:51:38.677-05:002015-06-09T14:51:38.677-05:00Hi...nothingbeforeus speaking. Thanks for the new ...Hi...nothingbeforeus speaking. Thanks for the new moniker. It is quite appropriate, I guess, considering my real name, "everything before us" comes from the opening lines of A Tale of Two Cities, "...we had everything before us, we had nothing before us..." So very good Anonymous. You've either done your reading, or you are simply going with the obvious an attempt to mock me. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-20730219957515318952015-06-09T13:27:56.169-05:002015-06-09T13:27:56.169-05:00Flying Fig, for whatever reason Jeff ignores certa...Flying Fig, for whatever reason Jeff ignores certain commenters. Your comments are just as good and valid as the two whom Jeff allows to pontificate nonsense. <br /><br />I have asked many sincere questions, because I thought Jeff was knowledgeable, and was ignored. Except one question.... my question was not disrespectful at all. It was sincere and he was none too nice in his reply. It was sonething with which I am very knowledgeable. And my question / comment was nothing like Out of Orbit and nothing before us say on a continuous basis.<br /><br />Those two, and there are others, who continuously arrogate their demonic comments ( and motives) which they know nothing about, yet are not deleted or reprimanded while others get deleted.<br /><br /> Outer Space and everythingnotthere control the narrative, are rude to others and yet are allowed to continue with their acidic comments and show lack of class. <br /><br />Hopefully in the next life they will be made to lick the boots of those they now denigrate. <br /><br /><br /> Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-25939828794167127022015-06-09T10:56:57.986-05:002015-06-09T10:56:57.986-05:00Good for you Orbiting Kolob. Your wisdom and elo...Good for you Orbiting Kolob. Your wisdom and eloquent discourse never ceases to amaze. <br /><br /> Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-86904700579960396692015-06-07T18:10:19.416-05:002015-06-07T18:10:19.416-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04668073406352787818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-73709103065367445652015-06-07T15:21:06.428-05:002015-06-07T15:21:06.428-05:00You're absolutely right, OK. It's very tro...You're absolutely right, OK. It's very troubling to that these "men of God" had such things to say. But I guess there's a lot of LDS church history we're not supposed to think about.<br /> And while agree with you and Jeff that LDS leaders no longer talk this way, it's still a problem when these past prophets and apostles are quoted as authoritive only when we agree with them. <br /> And I'm not expecting them to be infallible, we're all human. But the things these church leaders said was without apology or remorse . They knew exactly what they were saying and it was done in the context of teaching as apostles and prophets, they're all at least published as such.<br /><br />My question is when exactly do we decide what they say is truth and what is garbage and is there ANY, ANY accountability for what comes out of their mouths? Does character matter? <br /><br />Jeff?flying fignoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-72662291065880104932015-06-07T12:17:42.655-05:002015-06-07T12:17:42.655-05:00To me the problem with the rhetoric cited by Fig i...To me the problem with the rhetoric cited by Fig is not just that it's ugly, but that it's bombastic, and that it springs from a sense of absolute certainty in one's own rightness and evinces not a shred of humility. And let's not forget that it had deadly consequences (e.g., when it helped motivate the Mountain Meadows Massacre).<br /><br />Jeff is right that Mormon leaders no longer talk this way. It's a good thing.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04668073406352787818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-73062543706207272992015-06-07T10:25:50.009-05:002015-06-07T10:25:50.009-05:00Fig,
I am not sure what answer would satisfy you....Fig, <br />I am not sure what answer would satisfy you. Prophets use different rhetoric for different audiences and circumstances. We are all happy that you are not angry. I am not sure why Jeff or any other Mormon needs to answer for anyone else's statements but his own. He has asked you to look at larger context and more recent history and provided good support for that. I don't think anyone is trying to walk back statements that Catholic ordinances do not lead to salvation just as I don't think Catholics are ready to endorse LDS ordinances. But that doesn't mean we can't start talking more kindly about it and treating each other nicely while still condemning each other to hell on the side. Some of my best friends are dead certain I will burn in flames forever. I think this just strengthens the resolve to enjoy one another's company in this life. Peace to you. Gilgameshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09932914135182990135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-54898152293635840872015-06-07T10:13:55.147-05:002015-06-07T10:13:55.147-05:00Thanks for that Deseret News article Jeff. I have ...Thanks for that Deseret News article Jeff. I have family that are Catholic that will be visiting me in Utah soon and that was a very helpful thing to share. Gilgameshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09932914135182990135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-31067298472467755382015-06-07T08:44:49.246-05:002015-06-07T08:44:49.246-05:00It's also interesting that because I bring up ...It's also interesting that because I bring up this typical practice "these words count but these do not" I'm quickly labeled as driven by angerflying fignoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-66444861812192504082015-06-07T08:34:23.559-05:002015-06-07T08:34:23.559-05:00Jeff, reading your reply I see two typical respons...Jeff, reading your reply I see two typical responses.<br /> The first, blaming others for the ugly Mormon behavior<br />"Yes, there were some harsh words at times, especially when motivated by the hypocrisy of Christians who persecuted early Mormons for their faith"<br /> Read it again, those quotes are not reaction to persecution, they're teachings of apostles and prophets (men supposedly lead by the Spirit of God) that non-LDS Christians are damned.<br /><br /> The second thing you did was ignore my point that some apostle/prophet's words count and some do not. EVEN NOW in your reply you pick and choose what sounds good, using their words as authority to support your argument and positions while at the same time throwing out their words as meaningless nonsense of "out of touch" men<br /> Did someone say " hypocrisy"?flying fignoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-73867014592323089492015-06-07T06:38:20.673-05:002015-06-07T06:38:20.673-05:00The history of the Church's interactions with ...The history of the Church's interactions with the Roman Catholic faith in Utah is on the whole an example of tolerance worthy of note. A brief review is offered at the Deseret News in "<a href="http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705377107/Mormon-Catholic-tolerance-goes-back-to-Brigham-Young.html?pg=all" rel="nofollow">Mormon-Catholic tolerance goes back to Brigham Young</a>". The story begins with a reference to President Thomas S. Monson and the Mormon Tabernacle Choir participating in the centennial celebrations for Salt Lake City's Catholic Cathedral of the Madeleine. Our very presence there is a sign of goodwill for other faiths. A large excerpt follows: <br /><br />"There is a story here that few Catholics and Latter-day Saints know.By the late 1860s, Mormon isolation in Utah was ending. Jewish merchants and businessmen arrived, for instance, as early as 1854. Strong Jewish-Mormon friendships grew, and Brigham Young more than once opened Mormon church buildings to Jewish religious services. In their turn, Catholics first came to Utah in 1862, as members of the California Volunteers. In 1866, when Father Edward Kelly sought a place to celebrate Mass, Mormon leaders permitted him to use the old tabernacle on today's Temple Square, and Brigham Young helped him to obtain clear title to land for the first Catholic church in the city. On May 10, 1869, the Union and Central Pacific Railroads met at Promontory Summit.... Though Catholics and Latter-day Saints differed theologically, they were generally friendly with one another. Thus, for example, not long after then-Father Scanlan arrived in Utah in 1873, he was invited by Mormon leaders in St. George, Utah, to use their tabernacle for worship. However, he feared that some of the liturgy would need to be omitted since it called for a choir singing in Latin. But he was soon surprised to discover that the director of the St. George Tabernacle's choir had ordered the appropriate music and was preparing his group to perform it, in Latin, in two weeks. Accordingly, on May 18,1873 a Catholic high Mass was sung by a Mormon choir in the St. George Tabernacle. Plainly, although none can deny some harsh rhetoric over the years, Mormon respect for Catholics long predates the 2009 centennial of the Cathedral of the Madeleine. In fact, it dates to the days of Joseph Smith himself. Referring to the mob burning of the Ursuline Convent near Boston in 1834, Joseph remarked:"The early settlers of Boston . . . who had fled from their mother country to avoid persecution and death, soon became so lost to principles of justice and religious liberty as to whip and hang the Baptist and the Quaker, who, like themselves, had fled from tyranny to a land of freedom; and the Fathers of Salem, from 1691 to 1693, whipped, imprisoned, tortured, and hung many of their citizens for supposed witchcraft; and quite recently, while boasting of her light and knowledge, of her laws and religion, as surpassed by none on earth, has New England been guilty of burning a Catholic convent in the vicinity of Charlestown, and of scattering the inmates to the four winds; yes, in sight of the very spot where the fire of the American Independence was first kindled, where a monument is now erecting in memory of the battle of Bunker Hill, and the fate of the immortal Warren, who bled, who died on those sacred heights, to purchase religious liberty for his country; in sight of this very spot, have the religionists of the nineteenth century demolished a noble brick edifice, hurling its inhabitants forth upon a cold, unfeeling world for protection and subsistence.""The old Catholic church traditions are worth more than all you have said," Joseph told his followers in a sermon delivered less than two weeks before he himself was murdered by a mob. A strong foundation for friendship and respect toward Catholics was laid down in the earliest years of Mormonism."Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-67768113199424612452015-06-07T06:37:47.646-05:002015-06-07T06:37:47.646-05:00Fig, the actual practices and teachings of the Chu...Fig, the actual practices and teachings of the Church do not condemn other Christians to hell and express a great deal of toleration for other faiths. That's built into the Articles of Faith. Yes, there were some harsh words at times, especially when motivated by the hypocrisy of Christians who persecuted early Mormons for their faith. But in spite of some angry rhetoric in the early days, and in spite of believing that the need for the Restoration has been a widespread loss of original Christian truth and authority, the Church since then has cooperated with other faiths and shown a lot of goodwill.<br /><br />I'm sorry for whatever anger drives you, but anger towards other religions is not what drives us. What the Church actually teaches us is more like <a href="http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/respect-for-diversity-of-faiths" rel="nofollow">this recent statement</a>: <br /><br />"A respect for the diverse beliefs and unique contributions of all the world’s faiths is one of the hallmarks of Mormonism. From the earliest days of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Joseph Smith elevated the principle of religious liberty and tolerance: “We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may” (Articles of Faith 1:11).<br /><br />In that same spirit, Church President Thomas S. Monson made a plea during general conference, a semiannual worldwide meeting, for more religious understanding: “I would encourage members of the Church wherever they may be to show kindness and respect for all people everywhere. The world in which we live is filled with diversity. We can and should demonstrate respect toward those whose beliefs differ from ours.” Latter-day Saints accept all sincere believers as equals in the pursuit of faith and in the great work of serving humanity.<br /><br />"Emphasizing God’s love for all people, not just those of one religion, President Dieter F. Uchtdorf of the First Presidency, the highest governing body of the Church, declared: 'We honor and respect sincere souls from all religions, no matter where or when they lived, who have loved God, even without having the fullness of the gospel. We lift our voices in gratitude for their selflessness and courage. We embrace them as brothers and sisters, children of our Heavenly Father. … He hears the prayers of the humble and sincere of every nation, tongue, and people. He grants light to those who seek and honor Him and are willing to obey His commandments.'"<br /><br />The Church today interacts and cooperates with many other faiths in supporting humanitarian and other projects. That includes Protestant faiths, Catholicism, Judaism, and Islam. <br /><br />The meetings I've attended, the discussions I've heard, the teachings I've received over my life have generally encouraged respect for other faiths, not anger or hatred, though yes, we have some strong doctrinal differences and concerns.Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-52158372200743775352015-06-06T11:56:44.437-05:002015-06-06T11:56:44.437-05:00Jeff said: "what that actually might mean for...Jeff said: "what that actually might mean for the Father I do not know, so I will leave that for later"<br /><br />"those overly colorful quotes certainly don't reflect the goodwill the Church...is way out of touch with our views"<br /><br />I used to frequent this blog quite often in the hope of finding intelligent dialogue concerning the LDS faith. But the only thing Jeff has repeatedly demonstrated is a blatant equivocal argument of the teachings/statements of LDS PROPHETS and APOSTLES.<br /><br /> Jeff is always ready to build a case or impart knowledge based off various teachings and writings of LDS PROPHETS and APOSTLES as if their words carry some sense of authority. He'll even go so far as quoting non-LDS "TRUE mysteries" of Clement of Alexandria in support of LDS theology. But when those same LDS PROPHETS and APOSTLES are quoted with anything he either disagrees with, is culturally offensive or unqualifiedly strange he simply dismisses their words as "out of touch" and encourages readers to move on. <br /><br />Nowhere else do I witness such constant disingenuous and equivocal apologetics than those used to defend the LDS faith. <br /><br />Jeff, I'm curious, are you sincerely unaware or purposely deceitful? flying fignoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-27408657906407655122015-06-06T00:34:37.684-05:002015-06-06T00:34:37.684-05:00Everything, those overly colorful quotes certainly...Everything, those overly colorful quotes certainly don't reflect the goodwill the Church has shown for our fellow Christians and for the rest of Christianity. In the days of Christian mobs versus the Church, it was easy to have an us-versus-them mentality in some of the statements made about our "competitors" and furious foes, but that's not an accurate representation of the actual practice. The kindness shown the Catholic Church in Utah when they came to St. George and Salt Lake City may be more representative, along with some positive statements about the old Catholic religion from Joseph himself. But yes, we have from the beginning insisted that there has been a serious apostasy and a great need for the Restoration. But to say we consign the rest of Christianity to hell is way out of touch with our views. I think you'll find much more respectful and measured statements in the past 50 years. Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-16116457971670722532015-06-06T00:25:45.322-05:002015-06-06T00:25:45.322-05:00Orbiting, I believe Christ came to earth as a man,...Orbiting, I believe Christ came to earth as a man, somewhat similar to us. He said He did nothing except what He has seen the Father do (John 5:19). Since Christ is God also (one of the Godhead, to be specific) and is one with the Father, I find it possible to accept that God/Christ once experienced mortality and then resurrection. But what that actually might mean for the Father I do not know, so I will leave that for later. But of course I do not have any reason to believe that God was once a fallen, sinful human like me. I have good scriptural reasons to reject such a notion. God and Christ represent perfection, ultimate authority, creation, sinlessness, and the source of all glory. That they share it with fallen man through the power of the Atonement is a marvel and a wonder, leaving us no cause to boast, even if made joint heirs with Christ. We will always bow in humble reverence before them, especially after being admitted into their presence and allowed to partake of their joy more fully. Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-7957294158936347862015-06-06T00:13:09.972-05:002015-06-06T00:13:09.972-05:00As for the claim that Clement of Alexandria was ju...As for the claim that Clement of Alexandria was just "riffing" on the Bible and was not referring to any unpublished mysteries such as sacred temple concepts, I think it would be helpful to read a little more of Clement. He does in fact make references to sacred knowledge in unwritten form passed on from the apostles. E.g., In Stromata, Book 6, end of chapters 7 and 8, you can find some interesting material as he discusses this higher knowledge, or gnosis. E.g., <br /><br />"And the gnosis itself is that which has descended by transmission to a few, having been imparted unwritten by the apostles."<br /><br />Chapter 15 also affirms that there was unwritten knowledge given by Christ to the apostles. I think this may be related to the traditions around the 40-day ministry of Christ where he obviously taught a great deal that is also clearly not recorded. <br /><br />A number of other early Christians spoke of similar things, including teachings and rites (e.g., chrism) that were not published or at least are not clearly presented in the Bible. Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-48303798316251311662015-06-05T22:10:31.595-05:002015-06-05T22:10:31.595-05:00FWIW I fully accept King Follett doctrine, evengea...FWIW I fully accept King Follett doctrine, evengeance if it hasn't made its way into the cannon. I don't have any trouble believing that people in Book of Mormon as well as in the Bible may not have had this type of knowledge yet, and that we have a tiny glimpse of it. Piercenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-77894279497612932582015-06-05T19:52:27.107-05:002015-06-05T19:52:27.107-05:00I think you are putting a little too much emphasis...<i>I think you are putting a little too much emphasis on Joseph Smith's later, non-canonical teachings (as filtered through Brigham Young's Adam-God doctrines....) But I think in figuring out what "Mormonism" says about the Trinity and the nature of God, it is best to rely primarily on canonized scripture. Personally, I think many later church leaders have been a bit too cavalier in looking superficially at some of Joseph Smith's reported later teachings....</i><br /><br />If I understand you rightly, JKC, you're implicitly admitting that the various prophets have repeatedly led believers astray.<br /><br />But I thought that was one thing they could never, ever do. As Wilford Woodruff put it, "The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place."<br /><br />If Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were genuine prophets, it is odd that we now find ourselves struggling to figure out which of their doctrinal statements are true and which are false.<br /><br />It's hard to imagine having this sort of a problem with, say, Abraham or Jesus, or even Ezekiel or Isaiah.<br /><br />Feel free to argue that JS and BY's more, um, colorful teachings have no bearing on Mormon theology. Just remember that these teachings very definitely have a bearing on these men's characters. They were men who cavalierly passed falsehoods off as truth.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04668073406352787818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-32588050792472800922015-06-05T19:11:28.839-05:002015-06-05T19:11:28.839-05:00It is not well-intentioned ignorance, JKC, the has...It is not well-intentioned ignorance, JKC, the has led to Mormon misunderstanding of Christian creeds. It is the dialogue that violently and rudely consigned all of Christianity to Hell and the Devil which was ingrained into Mormonism from its inception. <br /><br />"What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world"<br /><br />- Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 270 <br /><br />"Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell. The eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and then kicked on to the earth."<br /><br />- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 6, p. 176<br /><br />"Christians—those poor, miserable priests brother Brigham was speaking about—some of them are the biggest whoremasters there are on the earth, and at the same time preaching righteousness to the children of men. The poor devils, they could not get up here and preach an oral discourse, to save themselves from hell; they are preaching their fathers' sermons —preaching sermons that were written a hundred years before they were born. ...You may get a Methodist priest to pour water on you, or sprinkle it on you, and baptize you face foremost, or lay you down the other way, and whatever mode you please, and you will be damned with your priest.<br /><br />- Apostle Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, v. 5, p. 89<br /><br />"Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." <br /><br />- Prophet John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, v. 6, p. 167<br /><br />"Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the ‘whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent."<br /><br />- Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 255<br /><br />“... all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ.... in large part the worship of apostate Christendom is performed in ignorance, as much so as was the worship of the Athenians who bowed the Unknown Gods.”<br /><br />- Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pp. 269, 374-375<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-21840131993370700492015-06-05T12:53:52.669-05:002015-06-05T12:53:52.669-05:00everythingbeforeus,
First, I never meant to say t...everythingbeforeus,<br /><br />First, I never meant to say that this was what Paul is talking about--only that it doesn't make much sense to set up the idea of adoption as being somehow less respectful to the idea that humankind is in some sense divine than the Mormon idea of humankind being children of God, because even in Mormonism you still have something like adoption going on, it's just pushed back another level of regression.<br /><br />I think you are putting a little too much emphasis on Joseph Simth's later, non-canonical teachings (as filtered through Brigham Young's Adam-God doctrines, and then through later church authorities) in defining "Mormonism." To be sure, you wouldn't be the only one! <br /><br />But I think in figuring out what "Mormonism" says about the Trinity and the nature of God, it is best to rely primarily on canonized scripture. Personally, I think many later church leaders have been a bit too cavalier in looking superficially at some of Joseph Smith's reported later teachings (King Follet, etc.) and even more superficially at canonized scripture (especially the Book of Mormon) in figuring out what we believe about the Trinity. I also think it is a mistake to speak of "Mormon theology" as a monolith.<br /><br />"In Mormon theology, though, I am eternal, you are eternal, God is eternal. But God is the source of your life and my life, but not his own. Something else has to be the source of God's life." That is one version of Mormon theology, but I don't believe it is the only version. I certainly don't believe that it is the only version consistent with the Book of Mormon, which I take to be the most important source in defining what Mormonism actually has to say. I also don't believe that it is binding upon members of the church to accept that version. It would be just as consistent with Mormon doctrine to say: God (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost) is eternal, some part of the soul of man is also eternal, but what part that really is, we don't fully understand. In any event, man was begotten by God and made his child and is sustained by God.<br /><br />I also should say, that I completely agree with you that we Mormons have done a terrible job understanding the doctrine of the Trinity. Usually, we think we are attacking the mocking the idea of the Trinity when in reality what we are describing is not the doctrine of the Trinity at all, but the heresy of modalism. The way I see it, there is very little difference between the doctrine of the Trinity, properly understood, as defined in the early creeds (we're talking Apostles, Nicean and Athanasiun, not the later stuff like the Westminster Confession) and the LDS doctrine of the Godhead. The only real difference, as far as I can tell, is consubstantiality, and even that, I'm not so sure is totally irreconcilable. (For example, to the extent that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are of "one substance" in the same way or a similar way that Jesus is of one substance with humanity because he took on himself human nature, I don't think that to be at all irreconcilable with LDS doctrine on the Godhead.) In any case, the difference is far less than too many Mormons assume. I attribute this not to any nefarious intent, but to well-intentioned ignorance, which is just one of the side effects of having a largely lay ministry without theological education.JKCnoreply@blogger.com