tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post814157742773067724..comments2023-11-02T07:25:45.884-05:00Comments on Mormanity - a blog for those interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: More on the Limits of "Endless" and "Eternal" in the Book of Mormon: Awaking from "Endless Sleep" and the "Eternal Band of Death"Jeff Lindsayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-77854378419596901432021-01-12T11:56:00.353-06:002021-01-12T11:56:00.353-06:00Jeff @ 7:02
“It says that those who are cast into...Jeff @ 7:02<br /><br />“It says that those who are cast into the first do not return. Return to what?”<br /><br />“Mosiah 2 likewise says that the wicked shrink into a state of endless torment, from when they can no more return. Return to what?”<br /><br />You are wrong—this is an unreasonable reading. You are inserting your own outside hopes that are not present in the text. You’re ignoring that the text tells it is not a return <i>to</i> anywhere, but a return <i>from</i> somewhere—<i>from whence</i> there is no return. We’re told there is no escape. The starting point is irrelevant. The same applies to Lehi’s description. There is no return from the path of death. We are told there is a redemption from death through Christ, but your own doctrine tells you that this is not a return, but a transferral to a different sort of body and way of existing. <br /><br />“You refer to 3 Nephi 27 as if it means infinite duration in hell for the wicked.”<br /><br />I refer to it that way because the text refers to it that way. I’m not sure what else “cast into the fire, <i>from whence there is no return</i>” would be referring to.<br /><br />There is a difference between eternal and endless. God’s judgement is eternal judgment, which could be a period of time or could be descriptive of the type of judgment. Endless, like the root words imply, is without end. It’s a description of duration, not a qualifier of a type.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-17118385225944585222021-01-12T10:46:13.471-06:002021-01-12T10:46:13.471-06:00"But the book does not teach that the torment..."But the book does not teach that the torments of hell last forever for those who must pay for their own sins and endure hell."<br /><br />What? Is it possible to pay for your own sins? Awesome, sign me up! I declare the person that pays for their own sins morally superior to the person that lets someone else pay for theirs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-6549712305191866052021-01-12T07:02:54.701-06:002021-01-12T07:02:54.701-06:00Anon@6:01, there certainly are absolutely final st...Anon@6:01, there certainly are absolutely final states for all of us. What the Book of Mormon teaches is that we are either in the presence of God forever, or cast out of his presence. We are out of His presence now and will be forever if we don't repent at some point. But the book does not teach that the torments of hell last forever for those who must pay for their own sins and endure hell. <br /><br />A key point here is the meaning of the language the Book of Mormon uses. In the modern world, "eternal" means infinite in duration. That's not really it meant in ancient Israel and Egypt, <a href="https://scripturalmormonism.blogspot.com/2014/12/moroni-818-psalm-902-and-latter-day.html" rel="nofollow">as Robert Boylan illustrates</a>, and not what it means in light of Doctrine and Covenants 19. The Book of Mormon is consistent with that 1829 revelation. In Alma 36:12 Alma was "racked with <b>eternal torment</b>," as are souls in hell. Alma's eternal torment lasted less than 3 days. <br /><br />The usage of "endless" is also important. Death is described as an endless sleep -- and then we arise and are resurrected. Hell is also endless and eternal, even though our suffering the pains of hell's eternal torment may be as short as 3 days, or many years for others. But not necessarily infinite. <br /><br />You refer to 3 Nephi 27 as if it means infinite duration in hell for the wicked. But that's not what it says. It says that those who are cast into the first do not return. Return to what? The presence of God. It does not say they spend eternity in hell. It says they never return to the presence of God. Now yes, being out of the presence of God for eternity is damnation and can be described in harsh terms, as it should be to motivate repentance, but it does not mean literally suffering in hell endlessly. Here it's important to recognize how Lehi's use of "from whence no traveler can return" to describe death makes perfect sense when you consider the location implied for the return: there's no return to mortality, but the endless sleep of death is still temporary. We don't return from death (to our mortal life) and we don't return (to the presence of God in the Celestial Kingdom) once cast out on the day of judgement. It's an endless doom, yes, but those so cast out, with the apparent exception of the sons of perdition, will all be released from both the endless sleep of physical death and eternal hell. <br /><br />Mosiah 2 likewise says that the wicked shrink into a state of endless torment, from when they can no more return. Return to what? The presence of God. But it does not require that their time experiencing endless torment in hell be "endless" or "eternal" in the modern sense of the word. It may be deliberately worded to stir up motivation to repent, but it's not proper to expect our modern formula of endless/eternal = infinite duration. Again, eternal torment was under 3 days for Alma, and "endless sleep" is also obviously temporary. The clear limits in the meanings of those words in the Book of Mormon must be understood both on light of what that text shows us, and also in light of Doctrine and Covenants 19. But yes, there are final states involved: the final state of being cast out of the presence of God. <br />Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-69656779812859725402021-01-03T08:40:35.507-06:002021-01-03T08:40:35.507-06:00Hi Jeff. Hope you had a great Christmas.
I have a...Hi Jeff. Hope you had a great Christmas.<br /><br />I have addressed 'olam/aionos at:<br /><br />https://scripturalmormonism.blogspot.com/2018/08/resources-for-we-agree-with-moroni-818.html<br /><br />Just fwiw. Might add some more food for thought.Robert Boylanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01252989841442658670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-75212026454404140792020-12-31T18:01:05.460-06:002020-12-31T18:01:05.460-06:00Doctrinally speaking, your examples are not apples...Doctrinally speaking, your examples are not apples to apples. The example you provide in this post in Mormon 9 is regarding resurrection, “from which sleep all men shall be awakened.” It’s “a redemption <i>from</i> an endless sleep.” It’s a free gift to all mankind. The sleep would be “endless” were it not for Christ’s resurrection. <br /><br />The examples you provide in Mosiah 2 as well as 3 Ne 27, are assignations resulting from a <i>final judgment</i>. There is no indication from the text for any hope of redemption. In fact the text explicitly rules out any hope of redemption after this final judgment “into a state of misery and endless torment, from whence they can no more return.” Note that this description comes after the author tells us it is a state assigned “at the judgment day; whereof they shall be judged, every man according to his works, whether they be good, or whether they be evil.” We are told there is no more chance at redemption for “mercy could have claim on them no more forever.” You are reading hope into a text where none is present. <br /><br />Comparing BoM language of judgment to D&C language is an exercise in demonstrating Joseph Smith’s evolving sense of the afterlife from a traditional Christian view, to a kinder, gentler, more modern view.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com