tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post8729233848149873959..comments2023-11-02T07:25:45.884-05:00Comments on Mormanity - a blog for those interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: Bad Math and the Premature Dismissal of Brian Stubbs' Work on Uto-Aztecan LanguagesJeff Lindsayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comBlogger84125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-51633759315562429052020-02-10T12:19:37.253-06:002020-02-10T12:19:37.253-06:00@Bruce Lloyd, thank you for sharing your thoughts ...@Bruce Lloyd, thank you for sharing your thoughts and a greater extent of them elsewhere as you have. You are 100% spot on. The Book of Mormon 100% happened in North America - no chance of the body of it happening in Central or South America. There are way too many correlations and Mr. Lindsay's remarks are easily rebuffed with complete clarity. The Prophet Joseph and other early saints clearly indicated all of this and it's a shame that so many of us got lost in the proverbial weeds over the last century+.Crypto Neinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-63736884232071911112019-09-24T15:30:45.995-05:002019-09-24T15:30:45.995-05:00There is a critical review of Stubbs 2015 pertaini...There is a critical review of Stubbs 2015 pertaining to his handling of Nahuatl here: <a href="http://nahuatlstudies.blogspot.com/2019/09/an-evaluation-of-nahuatl-data-in-brian.html" rel="nofollow">http://nahuatlstudies.blogspot.com/2019/09/an-evaluation-of-nahuatl-data-in-brian.html</a><br /><br />The review seems to feature some tension with the same author's statements here: <a href="https://www.academia.edu/37251168/Language_contact_and_lexical_borrowing_involving_proto-Nahuatl_and_Western_Mesoamerican_languages" rel="nofollow">https://www.academia.edu/37251168/Language_contact_and_lexical_borrowing_involving_proto-Nahuatl_and_Western_Mesoamerican_languages</a><br /><br />He says therein: "The main disadvantage of using loan word exchange as a source of information about the past is that both identifying the borrowings and interpreting what they tell us about the past social context that produced them is a highly subjective endeavor. It rests largely on the depth and breadth of the linguist’s knowledge of the languages involved, <b>and on their ideas about what the past might have looked like. For this reason</b>, it is desirable to begin by establishing the criteria that will be used to identify and interpret borrowings in this study."Jared Liveseyhttp://mouthofthelamb.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-4179809613529076882019-09-24T10:36:02.078-05:002019-09-24T10:36:02.078-05:00Jared - I take your silence to 8:39 to indicate yo...Jared - I take your silence to 8:39 to indicate you have the answer to your new question. Just as the lds believe there are minimal consequences to their blantant and rampant errors and they do not feel threatened by them because God will forgive them, so it must be with your far fetched hypothetical.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-24749207730384473872019-09-23T20:39:58.455-05:002019-09-23T20:39:58.455-05:00What are the logical consequences of following som...What are the logical consequences of following something completely and utterly irrational?<br /><br />If there is a God, why would someone that believed in Him not feel threatened for following something against rationality?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-25557950696286215262019-09-23T18:36:49.688-05:002019-09-23T18:36:49.688-05:00Seems painfully obvious that 1 Nephi 13:35 is just...Seems painfully obvious that 1 Nephi 13:35 is just Joseph Smith clumsily writing his fiction <i>about</i> the text <i>into</i> the text.<br /><br />How anyone can read this otherwise is beyond me. <br /><br />— OKAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-12132799233216078852019-09-23T17:59:46.595-05:002019-09-23T17:59:46.595-05:00Clear as mudClear as mudAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-60802828651923352542019-09-23T17:12:00.019-05:002019-09-23T17:12:00.019-05:00Anonymous 4:02 PM, September 23, 2019:
I agree th...<b>Anonymous 4:02 PM, September 23, 2019</b>:<br /><br />I agree that in isolation your reading is possible.<br /><br />For myself, I read 2 Nephi 25:22 consistent with a prior verse:<br /><br />1 Nephi 13:35, Earliest Text<br />For behold, saith the Lamb, I will manifest myself unto thy seed <br />that they shall write many things which I shall minister unto them, <br />which shall be plain and precious.<br /><br />And after thy seed shall be destroyed and dwindle in unbelief, <br />and also the seed of thy brethren, <br />behold, these things shall be hid up to come forth unto the Gentiles <br />by the gift and power of the Lamb.Jared Liveseyhttp://mouthofthelamb.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-66139472615407365632019-09-23T16:02:47.261-05:002019-09-23T16:02:47.261-05:00Jared - I do not read the "will and pleasure ...Jared - I do not read the "will and pleasure of God" to mean just kidding to the preceding statement they way you do, but the how to accomplish the preceding statement is according to the will and pleasure of God, plus your examples of other scriptures do not match. Furthermore, if Nephi delighted in clarity, then it most definitely does not mean what it is you have changed it to mean. But, like you demonstrate, you have no point and you are just engaging in "Intellectual activity that serves no practical purpose" and your clarity of definitions declared the BoM inauthentic anyways, so why change the mean of the its verses?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-14416125021353778022019-09-23T14:50:34.082-05:002019-09-23T14:50:34.082-05:00I agree with you, Jared, that a lot of Mormon doct...I agree with you, Jared, that a lot of Mormon doctrine is undermined by the Book of Mormon.<br /><br />— OKAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-33002444064561343732019-09-23T14:40:27.448-05:002019-09-23T14:40:27.448-05:00Anonymous 2:21 PM, September 23, 2019:
The next p...Anonymous 2:21 PM, September 23, 2019:<br /><br />The next phrase, "and they shall go according to the will and pleasure of God," qualifies, or sets conditions upon "Wherefore these things shall go from generation to generation<br />as long as the earth shall stand." The will and pleasure of God take precedence.<br /><br />Here is another example of this type of setting conditions upon what are otherwise unconditional statements in the Book of Mormon.<br /><br />Ether 3:14, Earliest Text<br />Behold, I am he which was prepared<br />from the foundation of the world<br />to redeem my people.<br />Behold, I am Jesus Christ.<br />I am the Father and the Son.<br />In me shall all mankind have life - and that eternally -<br /><b>even they which shall believe on my name</b>;<br />and they shall become my sons and my daughters.<br /><br />Here, the phrase "even they which shall believe on my name" qualifies, or sets conditions upon "In me shall all mankind have life - and that eternally."<br /><br />Some other examples of unconditional universal statements which are subsequently qualified, occurs in the Doctrine and Covenants, section 89.<br /><br />5 That inasumch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, <b>only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.</b><br /><br />And also this:<br /><br />13 And it is pleasing unto me that [flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air] should not be used, <b>only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.</b>Jared Liveseyhttp://mouthofthelamb.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-52274641673154388642019-09-23T14:30:43.216-05:002019-09-23T14:30:43.216-05:00All you’ve said so far, Jared, is that the Book of...All you’ve said so far, Jared, is that the Book of Mormon is highly significant <i>if it is authentic</i>.<br /><br />But so what? The same is true of all kinds of things. The Koran is highly significant <i>if it is authentic</i>. Ditto the Kinderhook plates, <i>Scientology and Dianetics</i>, etc. <i>if they are authentic</i>.<br /><br />Every single claim you’ve made about the Book of Mormon — that one must set aside one’s preconceptions, that the analysis is for each individual to perform, etc. — can just as readily be made about these other texts.<br /><br />You seem to think there’s something special about the Book of Mormon in this regard, but you have yet to show us what that “something” is.<br /><br />— OKAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-6449639180252903782019-09-23T14:21:08.663-05:002019-09-23T14:21:08.663-05:00"Wherefore these things shall go from generat..."Wherefore these things shall go from generation to generation<br />as long as the earth shall stand;"<br /><br />??? Does not the story go that were a 1000 plus years when the record did not go from generation to generation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-36001506323600677552019-09-23T13:57:00.093-05:002019-09-23T13:57:00.093-05:00But like you point out Jared, it is inauthentic, s...But like you point out Jared, it is inauthentic, so what is the he point? Also, like you say Jared, if authentic the implications are indeterminate and up to each individual and therefore inconsequential.<br /><br />Jared you appear to be indirectly attempting some claim you know is indefensible and bogus, and therefore you make it indirectly to avoid having to defend it Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-50011494320030055772019-09-23T13:30:06.334-05:002019-09-23T13:30:06.334-05:00Anonymous 12:56 PM, September 23, 2019:
My point ...Anonymous 12:56 PM, September 23, 2019:<br /><br />My point is contained in the comment I posted immediately prior to yours: the book, if authentic, has practical implications. What are those implications? Are they being realized?<br /><br />However, to fully appreciate what I am pointing out, one must lay aside all that one has ever heard about the Book of Mormon - and the New Testament - and take their contents on their own terms, even if only provisionally. It may be the case that not every claim made for or about the Book of Mormon is supported by the Book of Mormon.<br /><br />The analysis is for the individual reader to perform. That which argument may build, argument may destroy. The sword of truth cuts in all directions, even that of the one wielding it.Jared Liveseyhttp://mouthofthelamb.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-25714823269321108852019-09-23T12:56:50.510-05:002019-09-23T12:56:50.510-05:00Jared 12:94 asks, “What are the logical consequenc...Jared 12:94 asks, “What are the logical consequences of an authentic Book of Mormon?”<br /><br />This is a lot like asking about the logical consequences of an authentic flat-eartherism. <br /><br />If the earth really is flat, then NASA has been deceiving us. Our own eyes must be deceiving us when we see the earth’s curved shadow on the moon during an eclipse, or when we watch a ship disappear over the horizon. Ferdinand Magellan and Charles Lindbergh and countless others who claimed to have circumnavigated the earth must have been liars, and many others connected with their feats must have been dupes or conspirators.<br /><br />If the flat-earthers are right, then reams of what was thought to be solid evidence to the contrary was nothing of the sort. Ditto for the Book of Mormon.<br /><br />But so what? One could ask these questions about any kind of bogus claims, from those of Scientology to those of the Heaven’s Gate cult.<br /><br />So what is your point, Jared? If you have one, perhaps you should just state it directly instead of playing this silly game of “what if.”<br /><br />— OK<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-8128994021243732202019-09-23T12:38:42.859-05:002019-09-23T12:38:42.859-05:00It is not apparent that the implications of the au...It is not apparent that the implications of the authenticity of the Book of Mormon have been fully explored, and its contents fully appreciated.<br /><br />Here is an example.<br /><br />2 Nephi 25:20-22, Earliest Text<br />20 And now my brethren, I have spoken plain that ye cannot err. <br />And as the Lord God liveth that brought Israel up out of the land of Egypt <br />and gave unto Moses power that he should heal the nations <br />after that they had been bitten by the poisonous serpents, <br />if they would cast their eyes unto the serpent which he did raise up before them, <br />and also gave him power that he should smite the rock <br />and the water should come forth, <br />yea, behold I say unto you that as these things are true <br />and as the Lord God liveth, <br />there is none other name given under heaven <br />save it be this Jesus Christ of which I have spoken <br />whereby man can be saved. <br />21 Wherefore for this cause hath the Lord God promised unto me <br />that these things which I write shall be kept and preserved <br />and handed down unto my seed from generation to generation, <br />that the promise may be fulfilled unto Joseph <br />that his seed should never perish as long as the earth should stand. <br />22 Wherefore these things shall go from generation to generation <br />as long as the earth shall stand; <br />and they shall go according to the will and pleasure of God. <br />And the nations which shall possess them shall be judged of them <br />according to the words which are written.<br /><br />Among the words Nephi wrote are these.<br /><br />1 Nephi 13:38-40, Earliest Text<br />38 And it came to pass that I beheld the remnant of the seed of my brethren <br />and also the book of the Lamb of God <br />which had proceeded forth from the mouth of the Jew. <br />And I beheld that it came forth from the Gentiles <br />unto the remnant of the seed of my brethren. <br />39 And after it had come forth unto them, I beheld other books <br />which came forth by the power of the Lamb from the Gentiles unto them, <br />unto the convincing of the Gentiles and the remnant of the seed of my brethren<br />—and also to the Jews, which were scattered upon all the face of the earth—<br />that the records of the prophets and of the twelve apostles of the Lamb are true. <br />40 And the angel spake unto me, saying: <br />These last records which thou hast seen among the Gentiles <br />shall establish the truth of the first, <br />which is of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, <br />and shall make known the plain and precious things <br />which have been taken away from them <br />and shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people <br />that the Lamb of God is the Eternal Father and the Savior of the world <br />and that all men must come unto him or they cannot be saved. <br />41 And they must come according to the words <br />which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb. <br />And the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of thy seed <br />as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. <br />Wherefore they both shall be established in one, <br />for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth.<br /><br />If the Book of Mormon is authentic, then the words established by the mouth of the Lamb - meaning that which was spoken by the mouth of Jesus, as opposed to words spoken through a servant through the power of the Holy Ghost - in the New Testament and the Book of Mormon are more important than any other set of words occurring in any other texts, and also more important than any words ever spoken by anyone else. <br /><br />What did he say to do? <br />What are the practical implications of doing those things? <br />Are those implications being realized?Jared Liveseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10309044282039536254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-66018957692177591312019-09-23T12:26:31.074-05:002019-09-23T12:26:31.074-05:00Jared 4:28 -
"of undisputed origin" If ...Jared 4:28 -<br /><br />"of undisputed origin" If even Mormons dispute the origin, then no one thinks it is authentic.<br /><br />https://www.google.com/search?q=authentic+definition#dobs=inauthentic<br /><br />"not in fact what it is said to be"<br /><br />This is no longer a disputed, for even Mormons now dispute "principal ancestors" and as you yourself point out, Mormons, such as Anon 8:07 could be wrong and LDS Missionaries on youtube saying the BoM is like the parables of Jesus, made up but true.<br /><br />So Jared, according to your clarification of definitions, the BoM is considered to be of disputed origin and not in fact what it used to be said to be. According to your clarification it is inauthentic, unless you wish to clarify again?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-74949773088459379032019-09-23T12:20:41.661-05:002019-09-23T12:20:41.661-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Jared Liveseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10309044282039536254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-27033559007236603392019-09-23T10:57:39.603-05:002019-09-23T10:57:39.603-05:00Anonymous 4:28 AM, September 23, 2019:
https://ww...Anonymous 4:28 AM, September 23, 2019:<br /><br /><a href="https://www.google.com/search?q=authentic+definition" rel="nofollow">https://www.google.com/search?q=authentic+definition</a>Jared Liveseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10309044282039536254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-56765659427276167492019-09-23T08:07:08.561-05:002019-09-23T08:07:08.561-05:00In this important and interesting book the history...In this important and interesting book the history of ancient <i>America</i> is unfolded, from its first settlement by a colony that came from the tower of Babel, at the confusion of languages to the beginning of the fifth century of the Christian era. We are informed by these records that <i>America</i> in ancient times has been inhabited by two distinct races of people.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-60744976983938278222019-09-23T04:28:31.124-05:002019-09-23T04:28:31.124-05:00Jared - you were asked several simple clarificatio...Jared - you were asked several simple clarifications, which you refused, clearing demonstrating you feel threatened. So to answer your new question, you going to have to start by explaining why you in fact feel threatened. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-15342416490675826922019-09-23T00:04:08.891-05:002019-09-23T00:04:08.891-05:00I first asked what reasons might someone give for ...I first asked what reasons might someone give for wishing the Book of Mormon to be inauthentic.<br /><br />Other related questions to ponder might include:<br /><br />What are the logical consequences of an authentic Book of Mormon?<br /><br />Why might the authenticity of the Book of Mormon be seen to be threatening?<br /><br />If the Book of Mormon is authentic, then what does it contain that might be threatening, if anything?Jared Liveseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10309044282039536254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-66283818633612516742019-09-22T22:47:16.858-05:002019-09-22T22:47:16.858-05:00Anonymous, regarding the Wentworth letter, please ...Anonymous, regarding the Wentworth letter, please help me out. My scan of the letter shows not a single reference to the United States (including no mention of "the States," the "U.S." or "the US"). But it does mention America, ancient America, "this continent" and "this country." Each of those terms, however, may refer to the Americas in general and not the specific political entity of the United States in 1830 or 1842. That's an important point made in the links I provided to Stephen Smoot's essays on the many shortcomings of the Heartland model. See especially "<a href="https://www.plonialmonimormon.com/2019/06/a-review-of-the-annotated-edition-of-the-book-of-mormon-part-3a.html" rel="nofollow">A Review of the Annotated Edition of the Book of Mormon (Part 3A)</a>."<br /><br />Here are two examples:<br /><br />Joseph Smith (1841): “[Incidents of Travel in Central America, Chiapas and Yucatán] unfolds & developes many things that are of great importance to this generation & corresponds with & supports the testimony of the Book of Mormon; I have read the volumnes with the greatest interest & pleasure & must say that of all histories that have been written pertaining to the antiquities of <b>this country</b> it is the most correct luminous & comprihensive.”<br /><br />Joseph Smith (1842): “[Reviewing the contents of Incidents of Travel in Central America, Chiapas and Yucatán] If men, in their researches into the history of <b>this country</b>, in noticing the mounds, fortifications, statues, architecture, implements of war, of husbandry, and ornaments of silver, brass, &c.—were to examine the Book of Mormon, their conjectures would be removed, and their opinions altered; uncertainty and doubt would be changed into certainty and facts; and they would find that those things that they are anxiously prying into were matters of history, unfolded in that book. They would find their conjectures were more than realized—that a great and a mighty people had inhabited this continent—that the arts sciences and religion, had prevailed to a very great extent, and that there was as great and mighty cities on this continent as on the continent of Asia. Babylon, Ninevah, nor any of the ruins of the Levant could boast of more perfect sculpture, better architectural designs, and more imperishable ruins, than what are found on this continent. Stephens and Catherwood’s researches in Central America abundantly testify of this thing. The stupendous ruins, the elegant sculpture, and the magnificence of the ruins of Guatamala, and other cities, corroborate this statement, and show that a great and mighty people—men of great minds, clear intellect, bright genius, and comprehensive designs inhabited this continent. Their ruins speak of their greatness; the Book of Mormon unfolds their history.”<br /><br />When Joseph and others of his era spoke of "this country" or "this land," they weren't necessarily referring to the current political borders of the United States (which, by the way, would have made Utah and many other parts of the current United States outside the scope of "this country"). Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-87550645064569381322019-09-21T16:04:31.352-05:002019-09-21T16:04:31.352-05:00Jeff chooses to ignore the Wentworth letter (writt...Jeff chooses to ignore the Wentworth letter (written 1842) wherein Joseph repeatedly states that the BoM is about the native people of the US. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-39049531226899449442019-09-20T21:05:48.729-05:002019-09-20T21:05:48.729-05:00Jeff, I knew my comments didn't exactly match...Jeff, I knew my comments didn't exactly match the topic. However, I didn't see a better place and I wanted to communicate with you.<br /><br />We both love the Book of Mormon. I believe what the prophets have said and you are clinging to the intellectuals. I've read Matt Roper, Stephen Smoot, Daniel Petersen, et al. All serious students of the Book of Mormon have added to their understanding of the attributes of godliness and helped them to come unto Christ and embrace the atonement.<br /><br />The church is neutral on Book of Mormon Geography. Intellectuals have hijacked church history and organizations like Book of Mormon Central, FairMormon, BYU, Maxwell Institute, CES, 2020 Book of Mormon Sunday School (Come Follow Me) are all hell bent on promoting the Mesoamerican model with Mayan scenes and buildings in artwork and Aztec clubs embedded with obsidian. The ScripturePlus App grossly promotes the Mesoamerican model. They claim it will be a supplement to the Gospel Library App. I believe their real goal is to replace it. So far the new Book of Mormon videos are inspiring. However, I won't be surprised when Mayan scenes start popping up after they reach the promised land.<br /><br />Clearly, we are witnessing fulfillment of 2 Nephi 9:28-29.<br /><br />28 O that cunning aplan of the evil one! O the bvainness, and the frailties, and the cfoolishness of men! When they are dlearned they think they are ewise, and they fhearken not unto the gcounsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their hwisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish.<br />29 But to be alearned is good if they bhearken unto the ccounsels of God.Bruce Lloydhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16219324727160081128noreply@blogger.com