tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post8832057117003552556..comments2023-11-02T07:25:45.884-05:00Comments on Mormanity - a blog for those interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: Hebrew Written in Egyptian Characters?Jeff Lindsayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-90401583042957019672007-12-28T23:46:00.000-06:002007-12-28T23:46:00.000-06:00Jeff I was really glad when I found this PDF showi...Jeff I was really glad when I found this PDF showing that the "caractors" that we have from the Anthon Transcript actually have published counterparts in other Demotic Egyptian Grammars. Not sure if you have this link or not:<BR/><BR/>http://www.shields-research.org/Scriptures/BoM/Anthon_Transcript-Crowley/1942_02-IE.PDFNathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17178403692114327318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-58064881543760580502007-05-13T17:55:00.000-05:002007-05-13T17:55:00.000-05:00Of course this find isn't meant as proof for the B...Of course this find isn't meant as proof for the Book of Mormon. It merely illustrates that there are examples of Semitic writing in an Egyptian script, contrary to some allegations.Jeff Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776493593387402607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-22745324402223781752007-05-07T07:27:00.000-05:002007-05-07T07:27:00.000-05:00ruadamu2,He specifically said "doesn't prove anyth...ruadamu2,<BR/><BR/>He specifically said "doesn't prove anything" before making the comment that was sarcastic. It is quite clear that Jeff in no way intended to suggest that this evidence of a Semitic language being written in Egyptian proved the Book of Mormon to be true. He simply showed that one criticism of the Book of Mormon is hereby defunct, if for no other reason than because someone did write Hebrew in Egyptian characters, something you have previously suggested simply did not happen. Thanks for stopping by, though. Your comments often tend to bring up some lovely points of doctrine and thereby share a lot more good with believers than the dissent you wish to sew.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-20918201199209376962007-05-07T01:24:00.000-05:002007-05-07T01:24:00.000-05:00Anon,He stated that sarcastically, implying eviden...Anon,<BR/><BR/>He stated that sarcastically, implying evidence.ruadamu2https://www.blogger.com/profile/10603384551521067481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-83602923123573462412007-05-06T22:29:00.000-05:002007-05-06T22:29:00.000-05:00The original post pretty specifically spells out t...The original post pretty specifically spells out that he was not suggesting it was evidence. Or does that matter anymore?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-25637433310824770122007-05-06T20:01:00.000-05:002007-05-06T20:01:00.000-05:00Again Russell,The argument here is not whether "re...Again Russell,<BR/><BR/>The argument here is not whether "reformed egyptian" ever existed (though I highly doubt it). The argument is that the cited reference is not evidence supporting the book of mormon.<BR/><BR/>Don't confuse the two.ruadamu2https://www.blogger.com/profile/10603384551521067481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-85821272536086625352007-05-06T19:58:00.000-05:002007-05-06T19:58:00.000-05:00Russell,Your comment about the grand canyon makes ...Russell,<BR/><BR/>Your comment about the grand canyon makes me think that you believe I was arguing semantics.<BR/><BR/>On the contrary, it is one thing for a hebrew to write hebrew text using the Egyptian alphabet, and an entirely different thing for an Egyptian to write hebrew text using the egyptian alphabet. In the first case the hebrew is writing in a non-native alphabet, in the second, the eqyptian is using a native alphabet to write a spell that must be written verbatim to work.<BR/><BR/>This is not semanticsruadamu2https://www.blogger.com/profile/10603384551521067481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-41713701319769355752007-05-06T17:57:00.000-05:002007-05-06T17:57:00.000-05:00I think it very important that we recognize what t...I think it very important that we recognize what the BOM does and does not say about reformed egyptian. It DOES NOT say that R.E. is a systematic linguistic subfamily like French or English. Quite the contrary, Moroni notes in Mormon 9 that the Hebrew was "reformed by us [the Nephites]" indicating that the changes were quite local and provincial. They could well have followed Nephi's lead (whose record, according to Nibley, was probably in straight-out demotic Egyptian).<BR/><BR/>Folks make a fuss about "not finding" the language. Like other obscure provisional dialects, we can take a fair guess that we never will "find" it.Russtafarianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07575287678616776636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-20638277017838200822007-05-06T15:58:00.000-05:002007-05-06T15:58:00.000-05:00Jeff, this particular case of a Semitic-related la...Jeff, this particular case of a Semitic-related language written in Egyptian seems about as unrelated to the Book of Mormon as possible, and is certainly not conclusive evidence of the truth claims of Mormonism.<BR/><BR/>First of all, it's purported to be the earliest known Semitic text. I wouldn't be surprised at all to find the earliest known Latin texts to be written in whatever alphabet was in use before the Latin alphabet was developed (Greek or something? I honestly don't know what it would've been), but it would certainly be odd to find Latin or any Latin-based language written in that alphabet nowadays.<BR/><BR/>In other words, this new finding only serves to show how Semitic languages got started (note they're calling this "proto-Canaanite"), and says nothing about the various ways Semitic languages may have been written centuries later on another continent around the time when the Book of Mormon was supposedly written. I may certainly be wrong, but I can only imagine that once the Hebrew alphabet was developed they would've stopped using Egyptian characters altogether.<BR/><BR/>On top of that, the text in question is an Egyptian spell to ward off snakes (!) and appears to have been written in proto-Canaanite because the Egyptians assumed the snakes could only understand proto-Canaanite. That's a far cry from an Israelite text and in fact doesn't appear to have been written by Semites at all.<BR/><BR/>It's as if I were to tell you I knew some Russians who wrote drinking songs in French using the Cyrillic alphabet, and that this supports the possible existence of a reformed Cyrillic Arabic that the Muslims used to write the earliest drafts of the Koran. In fact, my drunk Russian friends (while they certainly are intriguing) don't validate the existence of Cyrillic Arabic in the least. (I'll admit that maybe the proto-Canaanite/Reformed Egyptian connection is a bit less tenuous than what I just made up, but you get my drift.)<BR/><BR/>I mean no offense whatsoever, but I think it's really misleading and irresponsible of you to call this evidence. If it's evidence at all, it's anecdotal at best, which is why the anti's say there aren't any shreds of evidence for the Book of Mormon. I'll readily and sincerely concede you have a shred or two (or ten or a hundred maybe), but I haven't seen anything concrete, yet.<BR/><BR/>Grace and peace to you.Joeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15502547077652141696noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-1370208263433049102007-05-06T01:27:00.000-05:002007-05-06T01:27:00.000-05:00That isn't the Grand Canyon. It's just a big hole ...That isn't the Grand Canyon. <BR/><BR/>It's just a big hole in Arizona caused by the Colorado river.<BR/><BR/>I'm afraid the above post betrays an intellectual rigidity about the term that the text itself does not justify. <BR/><BR/>Have you had experience in historical methodology vis-a-vis ancient texts?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11688054290936281762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-4756961694213129752007-05-06T01:10:00.000-05:002007-05-06T01:10:00.000-05:00This isn't evidence. It is merely a case of egypti...This isn't evidence. It is merely a case of egyptians writing semitic phrases in their own language.<BR/><BR/>Hardly the same thing as a hebrew writing in "reformed egyptian".ruadamu2https://www.blogger.com/profile/10603384551521067481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-74087388663034528182007-05-05T17:05:00.000-05:002007-05-05T17:05:00.000-05:00My apologies. I am no good at detecting sarcasm.My apologies. I am no good at detecting sarcasm.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11201054524923063570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-48291463116905211112007-05-05T10:24:00.000-05:002007-05-05T10:24:00.000-05:00Texas, I think he was being sarcastic.Texas, I think he was being sarcastic.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17109430531198187222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-89609375038198442192007-05-05T07:06:00.000-05:002007-05-05T07:06:00.000-05:00If it's not evidence, why bring it up?As an agnost...If it's not evidence, why bring it up?<BR/><BR/>As an agnostic, I think this kind of thing counts as circumstantial evidence. It's not enough evidence to win a case, but it's still evidence.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11201054524923063570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7139169.post-31795678935539286652007-05-04T21:19:00.000-05:002007-05-04T21:19:00.000-05:00Fascinating, Jeff. I hadn't seen this.For some of...Fascinating, Jeff. I hadn't seen this.<BR/><BR/>For some of Richard Steiner's previous work along these lines, see footnote 4 to my "Enallage in the BoM," here:<BR/><BR/>http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/pdf.php?filename=NDA1MjczMDQ1LTMtMS5wZGY=&type=amJtcw==<BR/><BR/>Robert Ritner, who referred this text to Steiner, published a translation of the Sensen Papyrus in Dialogue and the Journal of Near Eastern Studies, an article that has received a couple of reviews in the FR.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com